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Did a rough count of scoreless innings pitched by our bullpen pitchers so far this season. Probably 95% correct.
By my rough count our bullpen has turned in 363 innings without giving up an earned run this season. That is a little over 2.6 innings per game. That is probably the only reason we are a 50/50 team. I think that is a strong performance. I have disagreed with Ollie using guys like Fernandez, Roycroft, Leahy and O’Brien while the game is still winnable but King and Fernandez have largely performed well in tight situations late in the game. And Leahy is showing promise.
Helsley has a combination of 49 wins and saves. The remainder of the pen has a combination of 20 wins and saves.
It is possible to get a accurate count if you look at every box score but I didn’t want to take that much time.
Meanwhile looking forward if the starting staff remains the same in 2025 they will be 32, 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38 years of age. That is not an exciting prospect.
Bullpens / relief pitching can be wildly different year over year.
I’d guess next season the pen won’t be as good.
My guess is the pitching you are seeing the rest of the way will be the primary bullpen and staff you see next year minus Lynn, Gibson and Kittridge unless someone is dealt.
Helsley is 42-4 in 46 save opps this season.
The bullpen others are 5-20 in 25 save opps.Relievers transitioning from holds, to saves, has a serious failure rate. Helsleys first seven save opps he recorded two saves.
Helsley is 42-4 in 46 save opps this season
We won’t know what this team looks like in 2025 for awhile. Just pretend they go complete rebuild. You don’t pay a high price reliever if you are in a rebuild. Trading Helsley is what you would do. Sobering thought. Makes you rethink that rebuild.
Helsley’s value is as high as it will likely be so dealing him this off season should be a consideration. He has had some IL time in his career, and he is a relatively high risk for more of that in the next year or two.
The bullpen has been mostly a nice story this year. But as was pointed out, due to low innings pitched relief pitchers can vary a lot year over year.
Helsley’s a bit of a double edged sword. It’s too risky to pay him a lot of money, but who takes his place if you deal him?
I wanted it to be Andre Granillo, but he is still susceptible to wildness. So right now, Liberatore. He looks completely dominant in short bursts. Matz may also be an option.
If we are not going to be aggressive to fix the team problems, what does it matter who the closer is? Trade Helsley for an upgrade somewhere.
I don’t quite understand the obsession with trading Helsley.
The Cardinals traded outfielders with multiple years of control for relievers on expiring deals this year – TWICE.
Now people expect the Cardinals to trade a reliever on an expiring deal for an outfielder with multiple years of control?
If you trade your best bullpen arm for an upgrade somewhere else, aren’t you really robbing Peter to pay Paul?
The Cardinals have $11.5 million coming off the books in the forms of Gallegos & Middleton to offset arbitration increases and sign relievers.
From the deadline last year until now Mo did a lot of trading that hasn’t done much good. The pen is a little better, the offense is worse. Having BDW buy some journeyman starters has helped some. It’s just not reasonable to think Mo is going to significantly improve things via trades. Ultimately, its zero sum.
Aside from King (who has been quite good), all the other guys traded for were young minor leaguers. Sometimes it takes time to develop them. They won’t all pan out, but some should. Svanson, Showalter, and Sammy Hernandez had highly successful minor league seasons. Roby, Kloffenstein, Rom, and Robberse have been more hurt than healthy. Prieto has been solid, but unspectacular. Saggese was great at the end of last season and great at the end of this one, but struggled in between.
Only Kloffenstein, Prieto, and Rom had any reasonable expectation of playing in the majors this year for any significant time. The other guys are all very young. Rom did last year, but got hurt early in ST. Kloffenstein pitched briefly in the majors but has had no real impact. Prieto hasn’t made it. The others were all more likely to be 2025 or 2026 call ups. I’m ok if you want to call these 3 guys as trade failures and King a success. But it’s a little premature on the others.
Hoping for a couple role players is pretty forlorn. We seem able to produce that anyway. This team needs impact players very badly. I’m not on the edge of my seat waiting for Sammy Hernandez.
I want impact players too. But we gave away a bunch of expiring contracts that had zero value to us last season. Getting anything is a positive. John King has already made it worthwhile. But yes, I want more too. I’m just more patient.
If you want to complain about trade returns, look at O’Neill and Carlson.
Jnevel
I wanted it to be Andre Granillo, but he is still susceptible to wildness. So right now, Liberatore. He looks completely dominant in short bursts. Matz may also be an option.
Liberatore Splits
Career (2024 similar)
Starter 5.86 ERA
Reliever 3.95 ERAI think your best MiLB candidates for the bullpen should come from the starting corps – Graceffo, Thompson, Bedell, Roby
Also I like Ralston as a surprise candidate.
Liberatore kind of is from the starting corp but I agree those are all possibilities. I’ve been a long time Ralston protagonist. He just was severely hurt for quite some time. He looks dominant again.
I think your best MiLB candidates for the bullpen should come from the starting corps – Graceffo, Thompson, Bedell, Roby
I was thinking Graceffo or Roby would be a candidate for late inning relief in the long term. Both have the velocity in bursts, but the mentality has to be there as well. I know that Jnevel in particular questions Graceffo’s makeup there.
25 – Graceffo has become the pitcher I am most frustrated with. He beats himself. I’m exasperated at watching him. When he chooses to be dominant, he’s dominant. You can see the demeanor change. Then the next time out and he looks like he’s out there throwing at the County Fair where results don’t matter. I just don’t understand it.
If we are not going to be aggressive to fix the team problems, what does it matter who the closer is? Trade Helsley for an upgrade somewhere
Yeah and then you’d complain when we’re blowing games night after night. You aren’t getting much of an upgrade for a close on the last year of his deal. Better off getting someone desperate at the deadline who might throw us something(s) that’s could be ready to go in 2026.
25 – Graceffo has become the pitcher I am most frustrated with. He beats himself. I’m exasperated at watching him. When he chooses to be dominant, he’s dominant. You can see the demeanor change. Then the next time out and he looks like he’s out there throwing at the County Fair where results don’t matter. I just don’t understand it.
I get you there. If he could get hold of that mental side and keep focused, it sounds like he would be a very useful pitcher. Some guys seem to have it, and some don’t though. Liberatore has a similar demeanor.
Judging by our present rotation, we have had plenty of starters fail somewhere along the way. Our pen should be bursting with them, unless that doesn’t work.
It works for some, and not for others. The Cardinals pitching pipeline hasn’t been good for several years, so I wouldn’t judge today’s pitching prospects against the barest cupboard I can recall in 10 years of serious prospect watching and probably dating back to the days of Jocketty.
Seriously, who in the upper minors in that 2020-2022 time frame even projected to have a chance to sniff the rotation? Liberatore and Thompson, maybe. Rondon looked ok, Fernandez was traded, Woodford let go, and you had Cabrera who was a part of the pen for a while. Pretty much everyone else was exactly who we thought they were.
Helsley is saving us from last years 91 losses, right now. 5-20 by our bullpen others in save opps, is a glimpse of our pen w/out Helsey.
Next years pen could be beefed up, but they can’t buy Helsley type value at his 2025 arb3 salary, on the FA market. Betcha he stays this winter.
25 – yes, the cupboard was barren. We had around 5-6 guys at any given time who even had a chance to ever pitch consistently at the majors level. Today that’s closer to 25 with a chance. Those are much better odds. Still, we need better than number 4/5 guys and that hasn’t yet materialized. A few were supposed to get there this year and didn’t. Fortunately, Pallante found his way back into the rotation and that has been mostly successful. McGreevey is really close. And I had personally written him off as anything more than a number 6 guy. I think he’ll get a bunch of starts next year.
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