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My friends at RotoWire, Jeff Erickson and Todd Zola, are running a series in which they have another analyst join them to draft our all-time top teams for one franchise.
They asked me to join them for the Cardinals draft, which we will tape Saturday night to air on SiriusXM Fantasy Radio on Sunday. If they follow their custom and let me (the guest) draft first, Stan will be a no-brainer, then I would get picks no. 6 and 7. Those will be crucial. I won’t pick again until 12/13, etc…
Here is the example for the Pirates so you can see the positions they use. 15-man teams consisting of nine position players and six pitchers. Any feedback is welcome!
Musial, Hornsby, Gibson, Pujols & Smith as first 5 picks? Or will Wainwright or Dizzy make the top 5 based on positional scarcity of pitchers beyond 40 fWAR?
Yes, I have the same top 5. But for positional scarcity, I am thinking about Boyer and Simmons at 6-7. Then I would go two pitchers at 12-13.
Boyer is far ahead of Rolen, Kurowski and Martin at 3B. Yadi is close to Simmons, but if I don’t get one of those two, it would be a big drop.
On the pitching side, Wainwright, Dean, Haines and Brecheen are close career-wise. There are many in the next tier in the upper 20’s.
(I am using bWAR because that is what we use for the Cardinals HOF.)
Very fun idea. I’m curious what 3 catchers will be drafted. Maybe take Rolen and move him to catcher? hah
I’m a little confused as to what the end game is. Are they going to run simulations based on these teams or is this just a “for fun” exercise? Anyway, it will be interesting to see who you pick, either way. I like the thought process behind your first few picks.
It is just for fun. That way we don’t get hung up about whether to use best season, best three years or whatever. I just took overall results (bWAR) while a Cardinal as my base.
During the broadcast, there will be group discussion after every pick, which should be fun.
My catchers in order are:
Simmons
Yadi
Torre
McCarver
Walker Cooper
PagsHere is additional background.
Interesting. I saw that that Pirates had no current players selected…ouch! Yadi and Waino are pretty much locks to be picked of the current bunch, but it will be interesting to see who else on the roster now gets picked. Carpenter maybe is a possibility, although I’m not sure how he stacks up in career WAR. In a few years I’d think Jack Flaherty would have a shot to be picked, and maybe Carlos Martinez too, depending on how things shake out.
Top 50 pitching WAR:
1. Bob Gibson 81.7
2. Dizzy Dean 39.9
3. Harry Brecheen 38.5
4. Adam Wainwright 36.3
5. Jesse Haines 35.6
6. Theodore Breitenstein 35.0
7. Max Lanier 30.0
8. Silver King 29.1
9. Mort Cooper 28.5
9. Larry Jackson 28.5
11. Howie Pollet 28.2
12. Chris Carpenter 27.6
13. Bob Caruthers 25.9
14. Bill Sherdel 25.4
15. Slim Sallee 25.2
16. Bill Doak 23.7
17. Al Brazle 21.4
18. Bob Forsch 21.3
19. Steve Carlton 20.9
20. John Tudor 19.9
21. Ernie Broglio 19.6
22. Jack Stivetts 19.4
23. Curt Simmons 18.9
24. Dave Foutz 18.7
24. Matt Morris 18.7
26. Murry Dickson 17.2
27. Bill Hallahan 16.8
28. Vinegar Bend Mizell 16.0
28. Cy Young 16.0
30. Red Munger 15.3
31. Carlos Martinez 15.0
32. Lance Lynn 14.9
33. Pete Alexander 14.8
34. Ted Wilks 13.7
35. Lon Warneke 13.2
36. Joaquin Andujar 12.9
37. Jack Taylor 12.5
38. Joe Magrane 12.2
39. Harvey Haddix 12.1
40. Ice Box Chamberlain 11.9
41. Syl Johnson 11.4
42. Lindy McDaniel 11.3
43. Gerry Staley 11.2
44. Paul Dean 11.1
45. Bob Tewksbury 11.0
45. Ray Washburn 11.0
47. Kid Gleason 10.6
48. John Denny 10.4
49. Woody Williams 9.8
50. Jaime Garcia 9.6
50. Darryl Kile 9.6Top 50 hitting WAR:
1. Stan Musial 128.3
2. Rogers Hornsby 91.4
3. Albert Pujols 86.6
4. Ozzie Smith 66.0
5. Ken Boyer 58.1
6. Enos Slaughter 52.2
7. Ted Simmons 45.0
8. Curt Flood 42.3
9. Lou Brock 41.8
10. Yadier Molina 40.1
11. Joe Medwick 39.8
12. Johnny Mize 38.7
13. Jim Edmonds 37.9
14. Ray Lankford 37.7
15. Red Schoendienst 35.0
16. Keith Hernandez 34.4
17. Jim Bottomley 33.6
18. Frankie Frisch 33.2
19. Marty Marion 31.3
20. Matt Carpenter 28.3
21. Bill White 28.2
22. Ed Konetchy 27.3
23. Scott Rolen 25.9
24. Willie McGee 25.6
25. Tip O’Neill 25.4
26. Whitey Kurowski 24.5
27. Matt Holliday 23.1
28. Joe Torre 22.5
29. Solly Hemus 21.9
30. Chick Hafey 21.4
31. Pepper Martin 21.2
32. Ripper Collins 20.9
33. Terry Moore 20.7
34. Tim McCarver 20.5
35. Brian Jordan 20.1
36. Mark McGwire 19.3
37. Miller Huggins 19.2
38. Tom Herr 19.1
39. Garry Templeton 18.9
40. Jesse Burkett 18.1
40. J.D. Drew 18.1
42. George Hendrick 18.0
43. Ken Oberkfell 17.1
44. Arlie Latham 16.8
45. Edgar Renteria 16.7
46. Joe Cunningham 16.0
47. Kolten Wong 15.6
48. Terry Pendleton 15.2
49. Ray Blades 15.0
50. Jose Oquendo 14.9#1 Musial
#6 Boyer
#7 SimmonsInstead of two pitchers at 12 & 13, consider SS. If you don’t get Marion (31.3) as pick 12, you drop to Hemus (21.9) later which is equivalent to the 16th pitcher available. there are 6 pitchers in the 30 range after Gibson.
I think 6-10 will be Boyer, Simmons, Slaughter, Molina, Flood, Dean
If you have Boyer (58.1) at 3B, Carpenter would make a nice utility pick for you when you get in the high 20’s
I agree on Carpenter, but my guess is one of the others will get him at 3B before I drop down to UT. There are so many good first basemen and outfielders, than I am kind of assuming my UT will come from there.
Good point on Marion at the 12-13 turn. It may depend on how I feel about the remaining pitchers.
Thanks for the lists, stlcard25. It is a good check to ensure I did not miss anyone.
Just me, but i’d take Red 12th, even though Hornsby is gone and Frisch is still there within 2 war. Red plays for me. Then Marion 13th and the middle infield is set. Possibly the entire infield if you have Stan at 1B.
My take from the start will be to put Stan in the OF, but that could change during the draft. I am in no hurry to fill 1B.
The bWAR difference between Frisch and Red is seven – 36 to 29. That Frisch accrued his higher total in fewer seasons is not a direct factor, but one I will definitely consider to break ties.
Not sure I should wait until overall pick 18 to take my first pitcher. I will have to watch what the others are doing with their selections.
Also, they did not specify in the rules, but do folks think I should take one reliever out of respect to them or just get the six best starters I can? (The point is that reliever WAR is low comparatively, so if I am only trying to maximize WAR, I would ignore relievers.)
bccran asked:
Are these rankings based upon their career numbers or numbers wearing a Cardinal
uniform?I am not sure if you were directing this to stlcard25’s lists, but if so, a quick way to tell would be whether Steve Carlton is on the top of the pitching list. If so, it would be overall career numbers. As stated, that is not the focus of this exercise – we are considering just as a Cardinal only.
stlcard25 would have to verify, but they may be Fangraphs WAR numbers rather than Baseball Reference WAR. I am using the latter, though the differences are not huge.
If that’s the case, then the longer a player wore the Cardinal uniform and contributed to Cardinal victories, the more that player would tend to move up the list.
stlcard25 would have to verify, but they may be Fangraphs WAR numbers rather than Baseball Reference WAR. I am using the latter, though the differences are not huge.
I’m using the Baseball Reference rankings.
Red 35, Frisch 33.2, no biggie. Hornsby is long gone and two similar wars waiting. It’s reason enough to pass on 2B for a while, but my reason (Red) is sentimental, and a (edit-weaker) third pick at most infield positions makes infield a priority, imo.
My guess is once Gibson is picked, pitchers will go to the back burner with 1B and outfielders. good luck!
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