- This topic has 51 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 1 week ago by
.
-
Posts
-
1982willie, how do you figure the organization screwed George over? Molina and Pujols received more fan votes in their first year eligible. Nothing more to it than that.
Well brian. Its obvious who was going to get more votes when you put both molina and pujols in there with only two getting the nod. Also when you figure they didnt put waino in there also when hes just as deserving as those guys and retired at same time, to get put up for voting. Its obvious waino is going to get the votes when his time comes but if they had put him with this group one of those guys woudnt get in right away. So yes its all fixed and they screwed george. Anyone can see that it was a setup. Not particularly to stop george but to insure all get voted in their first time through. Both thing can be true. If you have a different explanation for why waino was left out when hes just as deserving, id like to read it.
I wasnt too sure about sherdel but seeing how consistent he was and the fact he served duel roles as a stater/reliever is pretty impressive.
No, it is not fixed. The rules are the same as they have been since the Hall started but it seems that you don’t know them.
I will summarize. Players are eligible after having been retired for three years. This is the first year for Pujols and Molina to be on the ballot. Wainwright will be on the ballot for the first time next year because he retired a year later than the other two.
Most years recently, only one Modern Era player went in but the DeWitts wisely upped it to two this year. That way there won’t be a backlog next year and the year after of guys we all know that the fans will vote in.
By getting these three off the ballot sooner, it will actually HELP the other candidates like George.
Also, when players reach 40 years since retiring, they move to the Veterans Era group. We committee members vote on these candidates (like the winner Sherdel this year). If Hendrick doesn’t get in via the fan vote by 2029, then he will move to that group and would be a strong candidate.
We knew Albert and Yadi would get in. Nice call by the vet’s to add Bill Sherdel. And especially in the centennial year of our first modern era championship, of which Sherdel was a big part of.
I would like to see both Larry Jackson and Steve Carlton enshrined at some point as well.
Well you got me there, for some reason i thought waino retired at same time. I still think pujols and molina should have been held off longer. Recency bias rules too much in fan voting. The fact fans voted friese in tells u what u need to know about all that. He did good by declining though, maybe he deserves in for that.
So you want the rules changed on the fly to make the players fans care about the most wait longer to get in. That would be the “fix” you accused them of. You would have a hard time convincing anyone that this is a good idea.
I do agree there is recency bias. I am thinking about proposing the cutoff between the two groups is changed from 40 to 30 years.
I didnt say i want rules changed. Silent george didnt get put on the ballot 3 years after retirement. Older players are always at a disadvantage in fan votes.
No, you DID say you want the rules changed.
“I still think pujols and molina should have been held off longer.”
The only way to “hold them off” would be to change the three-year after retirement qualification rule. Or I guess the committee could blacklist them even though they are eligible per the rules, which would have been a terrible, terrible injustice that would have been obvious to everyone.
You complained of a “fix”. That is exactly what this would be. I would resign from the process if we were asked to do something underhanded like this (not that it would ever happen).
I will explain further about the rules. Hendrick did not get put on the ballot three years after his retirement because the Cardinals Hall of Fame did not exist at that time.
There are hundreds of eligible players for the Modern Era fan ballot each year. The job of our committee is to select the best ones for consideration. From there, it is up to the voters.
Yes, older players are always at a disadvantage. That has been understood all along. It is why the separate Veterans Era group of players was created. The committee votes for them directly instead of fans doing it.
Having said that, even if they were all from the same playing era, Pujols and Molina are more deserving than Hendrick. A review of their career results would easily confirm that.
I get that you don’t like the results, but what you want is off base. I have taken the time to explain so you might understand the reality.
I understand the reality. Technically everyone that has been retired more than 3 years is deserving of consideration but only those selected by the committee really get consideration by the voters. And those change from year to year, some because of new people coming in and some because they just get rotated. Again i dont think i said they needed to fix anything, i just felt george got squeezed but thats my opinion. Two things can be true at same time. I agree that i didnt know all the parameters far as when players were eligible. 3 years seems kind of short to me, should be more akin to actual mlb hall of fame but thats my opinion
We don’t specifically rotate players on and off the fan (Modern Era) ballot. We discuss the same candidates each year (plus the new qualifiers) and then have a secret vote. The Cardinals look at the distribution of our votes and draw a line where there is the biggest gap. That is why the number of players on the ballot can vary slightly from year to year.
For example:
Player 1 = 85%
Player 2 = 75%
Player 3 = 66%
Player 4 = 60%
Player 5 = 55%Player 6 = 40%
Player 7 = 35%
Player 8 = 33%
and so on…So in this case, five would go on the fan ballot. But the percentage for a given player changes every year depending on the voters’ preference based on the competition.
I explain this so you understand that who goes on the ballot is not decided arbitrarily.
As a voter, I keep track of who I select on both of the ballots each year as I want to be consistent. Even so, once in a while, I will change my order based on information I may not have considered fully before.
I find it interesting that the rules were changed to allow TWO players from the fan vote the year that Pujols and Molina were both eligible. Coincidence I am sure.
There is no firm rule as to how many players go in each year. Some years the owners make a selection, some years they don’t. This year, they chose not to.
The minimum, though not stated, is generally one Modern and one Veterans Era player.
This year is not coincidence. They had two Modern players per year for a long time (2014 to 2019) but reduced to one more recently as the backlog of candidates was cut down to a reasonable level.
This year, they didn’t want the fans to have to choose between the two icons Pujols and Molina. Further, if they stayed with one, it just would create another conflict with Wainwright coming next year.
I explained this in January in the article linked to in the first post of this thread.
Does anyone disagree with this approach?
Does anyone disagree with this approach?
I understand their predicament but I think the process will have more credibility if the rules are more objective and less subjective. Making it up as you go doesn’t instill a lot of confidence to me.
What specifically would you have done instead in this situation?
All you would do by sticking to one Modern Era inductee this year is delay Yadi a year and then delay Wainwright a year. That also delays all of the other candidates who aren’t shoo-ins, including Hendrick. I don’t see how that is better.
FWIW, I don’t understand how including Molina and Pujols the same year undermines confidence in the process. Unless guys are getting in who aren’t deserving because of a change increasing the number per year, I don’t get the beef.
That risk of diluting the Hall is why I would not be in favor of going back to two Moderns per year every year. If it was up to me, I would have cut back to one a few years before they did, in 2020, and had more owner selections of historical non-players. It was understood among the committee from the start that two Moderns per year was not the long-term plan. There are currently 58 people in the Hall.
But if there is a special case like in 2026, I believe a change is justified.
Does anyone disagree with this approach?
As with the MLB HOF, I have no issue with the unquestionably deserving being admitted, however many may become eligible simultaneously. The matter is simplified when there are not serious off field matters to consider.
The way the Cardinals avoid that is two-fold. There is no minimum percentage of votes or the player falls off the ballot forever like Cooperstown’s 10% the first year. They also don’t remove anyone from the ballot after being on it for 10 years, like the big HOF.
What I am saying is the the rules should not be determined annually by who is eliglible. The rules should be the same every year. Either allow the same number in each year or require a certain percentage of the vote each year to get in like the MLB HOF does. You might have 5 get in one year and only 1 the next but at least the rules don’t flucuate to accomodate certain people.
It’s the team’s and fans’ hall of fame. They should be able to what they want with it. It’s their own celebration of their own players. I don’t know why we would need exact rules to try to make an imperfect world still imperfect? I often find that when people try to structure something that is chaotic, they only end up with additional chaos. Taking in both Molina and Pujols this year seems like the only reasonable thing to do. I like Silent George but he has always felt like a borderline candidate simply because of his short tenure and therefore I’m ok either way for him. But there is no way he’s more deserving than Molina or Pujols despite his long wait in line.
I think whether george is more deserving or less depends upon your point of view. Fan voting telike i said to recency bias and more upon popularity rather than deserved though a player can obviously be both. My point is the time that pujols and molina waited should have been longer then maybe some others would get in sooner than later if ever. Heck it wouldnt have bothered me if pujols and molina had been automatically put in like the hall of famers were when they started it. Then just have the fan vote for the other player since one had been the rule. To me it was like a whole waste of time. The article i read on it even made it seem that way. I guess they had it in the stadium with the names covered up. Basically said it was the worst kept secret ever. But its not worth carrying on about more.
It’s the team’s and fans’ hall of fame. They should be able to what they want with it.
Well Brian asked the question so I responded. To me it would be more legitimate if it had a more standarized process but maybe that is just me. Perhaps an ad hoc whimsical process makes everyone happier.
As a side note I am surprised that Harry Caray is not in the Cardinal HOF. I understand that he left under strange circumstances but he was the voice of the Cardinals for a certain generation. I am always surprised at the number of Cub fans who think Harry was a lifelong Cub. They have no idea.
I don’t mind having differing views as I believe the majority of fans would agree with the approach taken for 2026. And I have done my best to explain the process as some didn’t know all the intricacies.
However, just because one very logical exception was made does not mean the process is “ad hoc” and “whimsical”. That just isn’t accurate and frankly, is unfair to those of us who take this important HOF assignment very seriously. The current situation was evaluated and discussed as a group. A very defendable decision was made that is extremely positive and hurts no one.
To the Caray question, ownership decides who and when non-players enter the Hall. There isn’t discussion about it other than if we lobby the DeWitts informally. An exception was when Walt Jocketty was very ill and everyone agreed he should be selected and told right away while he was still with us. If that was being “whimsical,” then the criticism is worth it. As previously touched on by jnevel, being rigid is certainly the easiest path, but that doesn’t always make it the best.
I don’t think anyone is saying that Pujols and Molina don’t both deserve to be first ballot Cardinal HOF’ers. Obviously they do. I am just rying to figure out the voting process. I mistakenly assumed all these years there was a set number of invitees each year. My bad for being mistaken. In fact when I went to cardinals.com to vote a few weeks ago I only voted for one player because I thought that was the limitation. I guess I should have read the instructions closer.
I am aware of who selects the non-players but it still surprises me about the Caray omission.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.