Carpenter, Lohse and Dave Duncan’s impact

In several recent tweets, ESPN’s Buster Olney was sharing the thoughts of a talent evaluator offering his opinions as to why Kyle Lohse is still unsigned. The following quote comes from the evaluator with the conclusion apparently Olney’s.

“When’s the last time you saw a pitcher leave St. Louis and do well elsewhere?” The Dave Duncan effect.

With the recent announcement that Chris Carpenter will not pitch in 2013 and that his career may be over, the question of whether Lohse’s future might re-intersect with the St. Louis Cardinals was re-hashed by some.

While that return still seems most unlikely, the two right-handers – Carpenter and Lohse – seem to have experienced a tremendous benefit from working under the legendary Duncan. In fact, the now-retired pitching guru was credited for turning upward the fortunes of many a pitcher who had not excelled prior to joining the Cardinals.

While I believe that storyline to be true, I decided to try to quantify it. With raw materials provided by researcher Tom Orf, I worked the data to break out the results of the 76 pitchers who threw at least 50 innings for the Cardinals during the La Russa-Duncan years of 1996-2011.

To appear here, the pitchers must also have logged at least 50 additional innings at some point during their career while wearing another MLB uniform. As a result, Cardinals-only pitchers like Jaime Garcia and Adam Wainwright are excluded from the analysis.

For the 76, I compare their ERAs as Cardinals with Duncan to their ERAs over the remainder of their Major League careers.

The average ERA across the group was 0.33 runs per nine innings better under Duncan in St. Louis than otherwise. One third of a run seems significant.

  • 46 of the 76, or 61 percent, had a better ERA with Duncan in St. Louis. Their StL ERA improvement was an average of 1.02 runs per nine innings.
  • Two of the 76, or three percent, had the same ERA with Duncan in St. Louis as for their entire career.
  • 28 of the 76, or 37 percent, had a better ERA elsewhere. Their Duncan-StL decline was an average of 0.76 earned runs per nine innings.

In other words, over 60 percent of Cardinals pitchers who also appeared for other clubs delivered an average ERA of over one run better under Duncan’s tutelage with St. Louis than they did over the remainder of their careers.

In the table that follows, the pitchers are ranked by the difference between their St. Louis ERA under Duncan and rest of career ERA. Those with the greatest improvement as Cardinals are listed first.

Min. 50 innings StL Dunc StL Dunc Rest Career Difference
Pitcher From To Age IP ERA IP ERA ERA
Al Reyes 2004 2005 33-34 74.2 1.93 293.1 5.12 -3.19
Mark Thompson 1999 2000 28-29 54.1 3.81 282.2 6.11 -2.30
Alan Benes 1996 2001 24-29 415.1 4.27 78.2 6.28 -2.01
Rigo Beltran 1997 1997 27-27 54.1 3.48 52 5.36 -1.88
Luther Hackman 2000 2002 25-27 119.1 4.30 92.2 6.11 -1.81
Chris Carpenter 2004 2011 29-36 1331.2 3.06 870.2 4.83 -1.77
Russ Springer 2003 2008 34-39 133.2 3.03 722.2 4.80 -1.77
Julian Tavarez 2004 2005 31-32 130 2.91 1274.1 4.62 -1.71
T.J. Mathews 1996 2001 26-31 144.1 2.74 291 4.36 -1.62
Jason Simontacchi 2002 2004 28-30 285 4.77 70.2 6.38 -1.61
Matt Morris 1997 2005 22-30 1377.1 3.61 428.2 5.17 -1.56
Todd Wellemeyer 2007 2009 28-30 377.2 4.31 237 5.66 -1.35
Cory Bailey 1996 1996 25-25 57 3.00 150 4.32 -1.32
Trever Miller 2009 2011 36-38 95.1 3.12 428 4.42 -1.30
Mike Matthews 2000 2002 26-28 140 3.99 103.2 5.28 -1.29
Steve Kline 2001 2004 28-31 247.1 2.69 435 3.98 -1.29
John Frascatore 1997 1998 27-28 175.2 3.38 195.1 4.56 -1.18
Cal Eldred 2003 2005 35-37 171.1 3.41 1196.2 4.56 -1.15
Jason Isringhausen 2002 2008 29-35 408 2.98 599.2 4.09 -1.11
Brad Penny 2010 2010 32-32 55.2 3.23 1843.1 4.29 -1.06
Jeff Suppan 2004 2010 29-35 642.2 3.94 1900 4.96 -1.02
Randy Flores 2004 2008 28-32 178 4.35 72 5.25 -0.90
Lance Painter 1997 2003 29-35 145.2 4.63 304.1 5.53 -0.90
Woody Williams 2001 2004 34-37 588.2 3.53 1627.2 4.43 -0.90
Dennys Reyes 2009 2010 32-33 79 3.42 647.2 4.31 -0.89
Edwin Jackson 2011 2011 27-27 78 3.58 1190.2 4.45 -0.87
Ryan Franklin 2007 2011 34-38 312.1 3.52 888.2 4.36 -0.84
Tony Fossas 1996 1997 38-39 98.2 3.28 317 4.09 -0.81
Darryl Kile 2000 2002 31-33 544.1 3.54 1621 4.31 -0.77
Ray King 2004 2005 30-31 102 2.91 309 3.64 -0.73
Todd Stottlemyre 1996 1998 31-33 565.2 3.77 1626 4.46 -0.69
Kiko Calero 2003 2004 28-29 83.2 2.80 219 3.41 -0.61
Kent Bottenfield 1998 1999 29-30 324 4.17 587.2 4.74 -0.57
Rick Honeycutt 1996 1997 42-43 49.1 3.28 2110.2 3.73 -0.45
Mark Petkovsek 1996 1998 30-32 290.1 4.49 419.2 4.91 -0.42
Josh Hancock 2006 2007 28-29 89.2 4.01 88 4.39 -0.38
Joel Pineiro 2007 2009 28-30 426.1 4.14 1328 4.50 -0.36
Darren Oliver 1998 1999 27-28 253.1 4.26 1613.1 4.57 -0.31
Mike Timlin 2000 2002 34-36 163.1 3.36 1041 3.67 -0.31
Heathcliff Slocumb 1999 2000 33-34 103 3.84 528 4.13 -0.29
Kyle Lohse 2008 2011 29-32 598 4.27 1375 4.53 -0.26
Dave Veres 2000 2002 33-35 224 3.33 470 3.49 -0.16
Juan Acevedo 1998 1999 28-29 200.2 4.26 369.1 4.37 -0.11
Ron Villone 2008 2008 38-38 50 4.68 1118 4.73 -0.05
Chuck Finley 2002 2002 39-39 85.1 3.80 3112 3.85 -0.05
Blake Hawksworth 2009 2010 26-27 130.1 4.07 53 4.07 0.00
Jason Marquis 2004 2006 25-27 602.2 4.60 1199.2 4.60 0.00
Jake Westbrook 2010 2011 32-33 258.1 4.32 1372.2 4.30 0.02
Garrett Stephenson 1999 2003 27-31 505 4.56 146.1 4.52 0.04
Dennis Eckersley 1996 1997 41-42 113 3.58 3172.2 3.50 0.08
Donovan Osborne 1996 1999 27-30 392 4.09 481.2 3.98 0.11
Sidney Ponson 2006 2006 29-29 68.2 5.24 1691.2 5.02 0.22
Braden Looper 1998 2008 23-33 450.2 4.37 725.1 4.01 0.36
Andy Benes 1996 2002 28-34 777.2 4.25 1727.2 3.84 0.41
Pat Hentgen 2000 2000 31-31 194.1 4.72 1881 4.28 0.44
Dustin Hermanson 2001 2003 28-30 222 4.58 1061 4.13 0.45
Jeff Weaver 2006 2006 29-29 83.1 5.18 1754.2 4.69 0.49
Mike James 2000 2001 32-33 89.1 4.03 224.2 3.53 0.50
Manny Aybar 1997 1999 25-27 246.1 5.30 144.2 4.79 0.51
Chris Perez 2008 2009 22-23 65.1 3.72 213.2 3.08 0.64
Brett Tomko 2003 2003 30-30 202.2 5.28 1613.1 4.57 0.71
Mike Mohler 1999 2000 30-31 68.1 5.66 348.2 4.86 0.80
Jose Jimenez 1998 1999 24-25 184.1 5.52 337 4.59 0.93
Ricky Bottalico 1999 1999 29-29 73.1 4.91 555.1 3.87 1.04
Mike Morgan 1996 1996 36-36 103 5.24 2669.1 4.19 1.05
Anthony Reyes 2005 2008 23-26 220.2 5.38 72.2 4.33 1.05
Jeff Fassero 2002 2003 39-40 95.2 5.17 1938 4.06 1.11
Jeff Brantley 1998 1998 34-34 50.2 4.44 808.2 3.32 1.12
Mark Mulder 2005 2008 27-30 311 5.04 1003 3.91 1.13
Kip Wells 2007 2007 30-30 162.2 5.70 1175.2 4.57 1.13
Kent Mercker 1998 1999 30-31 265.1 5.09 1060 3.93 1.16
Travis Smith 2002 2002 29-29 54 7.17 57.2 5.93 1.24
Dan Haren 2003 2004 22-23 118.2 4.85 1758 3.58 1.27
Danny Jackson 1996 1997 34-35 55 5.56 2017.2 3.97 1.59
P.J. Walters 2009 2011 24-26 50 7.38 62.2 5.60 1.78

Few may remember the name at the top of the list, Al Reyes. The reliever had a short, but very successful run in 2004-2005 before suffering an arm injury. Not surprising at number six and the top-ranked starter after Alan Benes is Carpenter, who was reborn in St. Louis after a non-descript beginning in Toronto.

The others above the line read like a who’s who of Cardinals greats over the past two decades – Jeff Suppan, Woody Williams, Jason Isringhausen, Darryl Kile and so on.

The two in the dead middle are now-journeyman starting pitcher Jason Marquis and swingman Blake Hawksworth.

Among the just-over-one-third who logged higher ERAs as Cardinals are those who were at the very early stage of successful careers before being traded away. This includes such hurlers as Chris Perez and Dan Haren.

At the other end of the experience spectrum, others became Cardinals as their long careers were winding down. That includes pitchers like Pat Hentgen and Mike Morgan. Yet others could never fully fulfill their promise with St. Louis due to injury. Mark Mulder may be at the top of that list.

Finally, some were never overly successful over the long haul, whether under Duncan or anyone else. Heading that list has to be Sidney Ponson, though Kip Wells and Brett Tomko receive honorable mention.

And Lohse? Interestingly enough, his ERA during his time as a Cardinal through the Duncan years was only 0.26 better than his non-Duncan career years. The difference of 4.27 with Duncan versus 4.53 without represents only about one quarter of a run every nine innings.

An important footnote, however, is that Lohse’s fantastic 2012, during which he registered a 2.86 ERA, is in the “Rest of Career” column, same as Eckersley’s Oakland years under Duncan, for example.

Even though currently unsigned, Lohse has plenty for which send thanks in Duncan’s direction. Immediately upon initially signing with St. Louis in March 2008, Lohse put together his best season over his first eight. It was his first 15-win season and his first-ever campaign with an ERA under four. Of course, he turned that into a four-year, $41 million deal to stay with St. Louis, signed that same September.

The raw numbers of pitchers with a positive ERA tends to put an exclamation point on something we already knew – that Dave Duncan had a significant impact on these pitchers as well as the St. Louis Cardinals.

When Hall of Fame consideration becomes relevant for Duncan, here is hoping that he will receive support to become the first to be enshrined in Cooperstown for success as a pitching coach.

I am betting that Lohse, Carpenter and hundreds of other pitchers who knew Duncan best would agree.

Update: As the result of the discussion below regarding the impact of Yadier Molina on pitchers’ results, I have added the following poll.

[poll id=”186″]

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