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Matheny is showing savvyless levels that were never expected. So the bullpen has a $14 million dollar gigantic question mark for a closer. The closer who has been handeling his business was put into a tied game in the 10th after 3 straight appearances. Umm mike it’s May. Last time I checked no team has brought home a World Series in May. Putting your, not a young buck closer, into a 4th straight game, in a non save opportunity, in May, seems like I really stupid move considering who knows what mr Holland’s opus is going to do. And regardless if he gets back to form and retakes the closing role you’re still gonna need a energized healthy Bud Norris to be a big part of the back end of a championship bullpen. These are the moves made now that only hurt you. You can’t win a World Series in May but you most certainly can lose one in May, Mike.
LOL, no the WS is not won in May but it certainly can be lost when it comes to playoff position or no playoff at all. Hey, here’s a novel idea, let’s bash the first place team and its manager from the National League’s Central Division.
Yes yes and yes. Exactly the point. Playoff position, or no playoffs at all. Those happen now that is why you do not put players in jeopardy by doing things out of the ordinary. Post season sure send your closer out there in a tied game for a 4th day in a row cause your there. Now all it can do is keep you from getting there. What happens if today or tomorrow there are a couple blown saves cause the guy who is supposed to close those games, the guy who is 7 for 7 in saves isn’t available? Or worse is out a month? The cons in this case completely outweigh the pros. No one is bashing anyone. He was wrong. Flat out. Bad managing of a situation. Period.
I’m with Matheny on this one.
You back your team’s successful come back with all the bullets you have. And it makes a difference that it was the Cubs. I might change my mind if it was the Twins or the White Sox.
And remember this is a 33 year old spare part. If you handle Jordan Hicks like this, I have a problem with it. Yes, those differences in age,and talent level matter.
And I’m sure if you ask Bud Norris about his feelings on this today, he was OK with this choice.
See there is where I differ in opinion. Spare part? 3 million dollar spare part who happens to be the closer at the moment. Spare part who is a big part of why they are in first place at the moment. I guarantee both Matheny and Norris would say the complete opposite actually. I think Matheny knows he shouldn’t have put him in that situation. Cause he is the CLOSER. You don’t put your closer, in a non closing situation at home. Sure on the road, bring him in a tied game, of course that is if he hasn’t pitched the previous 3 days and half of the games so far this year, and especially at 33. Matheny put him in that game because it was a game he wanted to win. BUT May against anyone is May. And because he put him in, because he wanted to win the game, that says more about how Matheny doesn’t consider Norris a spare part. Handling a player like that, wanting to win that game, he’d do that to Hicks, Holland if he ever comes around. It’s the mind set. What keeps teams that should be contenders from being contenders or winning it all….injuries. Some are unavoidable. Some aren’t. Time will tell how this particular situation impacts the rest of th season. But for me, I know if things end in dissapointment this would be a move I’d go back and look at as a turning point possibly. Possibly losing what you call a “spare part” was about the only sure thing in the back end of the bullpen right now. Maybe not 2 months from now, if a whole bunch of ifs and could bes pan out, but I’d rather have the person getting it done right now than the person who everyone hopes will be getting it done.
Agree with Tommy on this one. Your better move was to leave Hicks out there. Not only was Norris the wrong move for the reasons Tommy mentioned, but now you have completely eliminated any chance of using him today.
This mindset of relievers only being used for one inning is one reason these guys’ arms get burned up. Once a pitcher is warmed up and into the rhythm of a game, pitching a couple of innings is not as stressful as pitching one inning two days in a row.
Today you pretty much are stuck with Holland as your closer, should the game go that way.
Overlooked in all this was getting into a bullpen game early in the first place, which was due to Weaver’s continuing problems. He needs to pick up the pace, or he may lose his spot when Wainwright returns, or possibly if Flaherty ends up getting a few starts and looks good.
If the Cardinals want to do their pitchers a favor – they need to bench Fowler and one of Carpenter/Jose Martinez…That will lower everybody’s ERA’s by at least one.
Did Weaver have a bad outing yesterday? The 2nd was bad, but otherwise? He was removed because we were trying to rally, which we did, in part because he was removed. He was at 75 pitches when he was removed.
And what is a hit with Fowler in the outfield may not be a hit with Bader in the outfield.
As for Norris being used four days in a row – this is Matheny’s biggest fault, something he still has not learned from his first year as a manager.
And I agree with bicyclemike, this overuse of the pen can easily be alleviated by asking relievers to go 2-3 innings rather than one (or sometimes, just one batter)…
What happens when a game goes 18-20 innings? Matheny’s teams can never get there because we are out of pitchers by the 10th inning…
Putting your, not a young buck closer, into a 4th straight game, in a non save opportunity, in May
Kind of misleading since there was an off-day in there, no?
So after 3 full days off, Norris pitches twice, as in two games, then gets a day off (5/3), then pitches twice more, as in two games. How in the world is that over-use???
You fooled someone already:
As for Norris being used four days in a row – this is Matheny’s biggest fault, something he still has not learned from his first year as a manager.
It’s also not his biggest fault since he didn’t do what you stated Cardinals16.
Let’s be honest here too. Norris wasn’t just put in a non-save situation. He was put in the game in the 10th inning of a tie ballgame against our biggest rival.
The leverage index when he came in to pitch was the highest of the game, meaning it was the biggest moment of the game for us. (Lyons actually had the highest, but that was after Norris)
Four games in a row is not four days in a row. It was two games and a day off and then two games. This after no appearances in the Pirate series. Not an unusual stretch for a veteran major league reliever. Again 20/20 hindsight for the Matheny haters.
I have no stake in the Matheny thing. I haven’t seen anything that indicates that he is an exceptionally good or bad major league manager. He has the team in first place and over .600 but if he doesn’t make the playoffs this year he will be gone. Won’t bother me. I think if you miss three times in a row with an arguably contending team it is time for a new look. But I am only a fan and in no way an expert on managing a major league team. Not even a highschool team.
It’s also not his biggest fault since he didn’t do what you stated Cardinals16.
OK, Pads – Norris was used in the last 4 consecutive games. Is that better for you?
At what point does a reliever get overused?
Would it not be better to have relievers go more than one inning or even one batter at a time such that you don’t use the same relievers in four consecutive games? If starters are expected to go 5-7 innings, why can’t relievers go 2-3?
Tommy, I get your point but I can’t blame MM for this one. Dang it we were 5-14 against the Cubs last year which is why we were sitting home in October. We have to throw the kitchen sink at them. Heck I would activate Bruce Sutter if I had to, as long as Sandberg is not playing.
The point is we have to treat these games against Chicago differently. They mean more in the standings. He can rest the bullpen against the Twins. Oh and put Jedd in the starting lineup!
A lot of good points by everyone. It is the mindset and use of the bullpen. 4 innings in 5 days even as a reliever is a “have to” situation. Had tui who was off dl and fresh and Gregson. Might just be obvious to me but there was options and it wasn’t a “have to” situation. And yes the starter getting into the 6, 7, 8th innings would make Mathenys job easier but the #1 thing any NL manager has to prioritize is managing the bullpen, and he is not doing that very well. Long season, and have to use everyone that is available, sometimes that means using someone in a game who you wouldn’t normally think would get the job done in order to win. Potential Consequences just completely outweigh 1 win in May even if it was the cubbies. Because guess what got them the next day and the next day and 25 or so more times this year.
Cardinals2016
OK, Pads – Norris was used in the last 4 consecutive games. Is that better for you?Spot on! haha. Thanks C2016.
Cardinals2016
At what point does a reliever get overused?Multi-inning appearances and sending the guy right back out there.
Heavy workload innings (30+ pitches) and pitching the next day.
3 days in a row might be, but 4 is definitive.Cardinals2016
Would it not be better to have relievers go more than one inning or even one batter at a time such that you don’t use the same relievers in four consecutive games? If starters are expected to go 5-7 innings, why can’t relievers go 2-3?I agree. I wouldn’t mind going to this. In fact, that’s what I thought Jordan Hicks was brought up for, but with our entire middle reliever cast ~ Leone, Holland, Gregerson, and Lyons, having blown up, Hicks got pushed into a new role. As did Norris.
I get that it is the Cubs. But a divisional game is a divisional game. And that 1 win is great, but at what cost? It isn’t a game 7, not a must win, not an all hands on deck. Would you agree if he had pulled the starter against the Cubs if he gave up 2 runs in the first inning of the game because it’s the Cubs? Time and place.
I come down on the side of those arguing against bringing out the hook every inning. Make these relievers work longer hours. Every circumstance is not an exception circumstance. And quit spending so much time agonizing over the “closer,” a dubious concept to start with. If a guy has just worked a three-strikeout eighth inning and is still fresh, why yank him just because he isn’t a “closer?”
Well I still think it means more to beat the Cubs than anyone else. The Brewers and Pirates can look all pretty in the standings in May but I don’t think they will be there in late September. Chicago will be there in September though so every win we get against them increases our chance of winning the division.
Well one way to look at is maybe Matheny had a gut feeling he could win it with a Wong homer and wanted Norris to hold the game tied. So he could throw out his Sunday lineup without Molina.
The other way to look at it is after the night he struggled through the evening before and having pitched in 15 of the first 30 games that he’d be unavailable.
Bottom line is Norris was going to get overused and burnt out. Maybe a DL stint or two during the season isn’t such a bad thing to take his favorite toys he likes to play with away from him from time to time. Lol
Speaking of wrong moves how does Bowman still have a spot in the bullpen? He has been terrible. I can think of 4 or 5 guys in Memphis I would rather see on the mound than him.
Speaking of wrong moves how does Bowman still have a spot in the bullpen? He has been terrible. I can think of 4 or 5 guys in Memphis I would rather see on the mound than him.
There is a bunch that goes into roster moves and guys getting called up. Options the player may have left, contractual stuff like having a split contract, starting someone’s arbitration clock, on and on. 99% of the time it isn’t as easy as someone isn’t doing well send him down and call up someone else.
Bowman has two years of major league success and I suspect there is some good will and loyalty built up.
You can’t cherry pick games in real life, but if you could take away his two bad games, March 29 and April 19 when he allowed five runs, his ERA over the other 11 appearances would be 2.53.
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