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This is very difficult for us to assess from here, with those inside the most qualified to comment. Remember how Marmol made a comment after the season about weeding out guys? Now Ryan Helsley touches on it.
“I want a clubhouse full of guys that has one thing on their minds, and it’s not themselves,” Marmol said. “It’s winning a championship. So, you start out by weeding those out.”
"It was just a weird vibe all year"
Ryan Helsley talks about what went wrong for the @Cardinals in 2023
▶️ https://t.co/tU01u1H5qg pic.twitter.com/qttNXM5viS
— Foul Territory (@FoulTerritoryTV) December 4, 2023
A weird vibe / chemistry issues behind the club house doors to me = lack of leadership in there from veteran players and / or a grizzled manager.
In any organization, somebody has to be the asshole and keep certain guys in line. If that didn’t happen then yeah – it’s going to be uncomfortable.
Albert and Yadi were gone from the position player side, but Wainwright was still there. Was he too nice to play that role among the pitchers? Not sure who was the veteran leader out in the bullpen. Maybe VerHagen? Goldy is soft spoken and Arenado, like Wainwright, was struggling with his own game for much of the season. Contreras could have helped, but he was thrown under the bus almost before his bags were unpacked.
With the new pitchers coming in, are the materials there for a change in vibe in 2024?
Lance Lynn is a rusty nail for sure. He will say anything at anytime ala John Lackey. I don’t know if that qualifies as leadership but he won’t allow people to get too comfortable. They probably need more players like that.
The biggest problem is Mo.
Poor trading, poor record with free agents, no international program, keeping prospects beyond their trade value, etc. But worst of all bringing Ollie back. Ollie did a terrible job in 2023.
Tony LaRusa was a genius at defining roles and getting players who fit and was willing to fill the role. Very few 2023 Cardinals had a well defined role. And that is very important to players.
Donovan is an ideal number one and two guy and possibly number nine but Ollie had him batting all over the lineup a good part of the season. And in and out of the lineup. Donovan probably never knew if he was going to be in the lineup or not or where he would bat in the lineup. Player like to know what role they are going to play.
Apparently Goldy likes to bat second but he rarely batted third and he was probably the only decent #3 hitter we had.
Strikeout guys like Gorman and O’Neill batting second, third and cleanup. He needed to put Goldy third and Aranado 4th and leave them there if on the field.
Players also run hot and cold. Ollie seemed to be obsessed with platooning. Playing Motter with Gorman on the bench. Dropping Walker to the bottom of the lineup with a right hander itching. In late August Edman had two walkoff hits in a row and Walker went 5 for 5 batting 5th. The next day they were batting 7th and 8th. Edman should never bat anywhere but 1,2 or 9.
Ollie never established a 7th, 8th and 9th inning bullpen and kept using middle relievers in games where we were one or 2 runs behind in the 8th or top of the 9th inning usually with bad results.
I don’t think he likes Helsley. Even in 2022 when Helsley was lights out in the pen Ollie kept pushing Gallegos to be the closer and after a few poor outing early in the season he dumped him from the closer role. Then he had Gallegos all over the place but while Gallegos had a poor season the uncertainty of how he was to be used had to weigh on his performance.
Ollie was also very impatient with some while seemingly had a lot of patience with Motter, Verhagen, Stratton.
His handling of Contreras was abysmal. Contreras seems to be a very conpetitive guy and like many joining a new team with a big contract probably was trying too hard and got of poorly and Ollie began messing with him and dumped him as starting catcher very early
Thompson opened the season with 9 straight scoreless outing and after a few poorer ones was off to the minors. Walker sets a franchise record for consecutive games with a hit to start the season and off to the minors when he hits a soft spot supposedly to learn to play the outfild better but was a worse option than Contreras or Burleson who Ollie seemed to have enduring patience with.
I don’t know who the bigger problem is. Mo or Ollie. Mo announces the Ollie will be back and then Ollie starts throwing players under the bus. And Mo might want to wait until after spring training to announce the starting lineup.
I am usually a glass half full person but I am 89 years old and beginning to doubt that I wil ever see another good Cardinal team.
The term weird is beyond an understatement. There are no words to describe the overall sense of what was happening with this team not only in the clubhouse, but also in the dugout, media and on the field of play itself. If you could somehow combine the opening TV sequence of The Outer Limits intro with the theme song from The Twilight Zone, it may possibly scratch the surface in regards to illustrating the bizarre happenings surrounding the ’23 edition of the St. Louis, Cardinals. All season long I felt as though I was viewing an over the top stage presentation of A Clockwork Orange…And what’s worse is that Serling and Kubrick continue to be at the controls of this team…”There is nothing wrong with your television set…Do not attempt to adjust the picture…We are controlling transmission”…Haha!
#STLCards manager Oli Marmol said he’s as excited about what Sonny Gray, Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson will bring to the clubhouse as he is with what they can do on the mound. He said the club prioritized those leadership & toughness traits and that’s why they landed the 3 quickly.
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) December 5, 2023
Oli Marmol on the #STLCards targeting & signing proven pitchers: “I don't think Mo got it done before Dec 1 for no reason. They clearly address a lot of the things we were hoping for. The three are the absolute perfect fit from a personality standpoint of what we're looking for.”
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) December 5, 2023
Winning seems to ease a lot of bad clubhouse vibes…and losing seems to make a situation worse. I’m not sure if it was personnel, coaching, the front office or something else but I’m hoping that the clubhouse is a bit jollier in 2024 for reason of winning.
Almost from the onset of last season, the terrible W/L record was exponentially exacerbated by the bizarre quotes and actions coming from leadership. There were too many instances to list here, but by the time the end of June had rolled around the entire atmosphere had become way too weird for me. It was really out there somewhere beyond the great beyond…
Some of the younger fans may be what could possibly be termed spoiled. I happened to have lived through a couple of protracted droughts and have attended way more than a handful of Redbird games in which the total gate was less than 10K fans. One of those dry spells lasted 15 years and the other 24 years. I happen to be a Cardinal fan who cut my teeth on WS Championship teams who’s rosters contained legendary icons of the game. Then, as an older fan I was able to boast that my favorite team had a player that was without question the greatest hitter in the game for 11 consecutive seasons and quite possibly the greatest RH’ed hitter of all-time. That same team has had 3 genuine baseball men situated on the top step of the dugout who are members of the HOF. In any event, I don’t feel as though I’m a spoiled baseball fan. However, I’ve closely followed Big League baseball for a minute or two and feel as though I possess just enough ability to determine when I’m presented with an inferior baseball team who’s primary weakness is a glaring lack of leadership. I’ll also say that every time one of these so called leaders says anything at all, they seem to be telling me that what’s falling upon my ears is rain and not what I know it to be….
Cardinal fans are spoiled by consistent success. It is irritating to see all of the whining.
Serious question GameCard, how long have you been a St. Louis Cardinals fan? I’m not trying to start anything with that question. I genuinely would like to know.
For me, it’s 54 years and counting. I’ve seen plenty of down times and plenty of success over the years. I’d say I’m anything but spoiled. I do, however, know plenty about the game of baseball. I’ll just say I’m less than impressed so far. I’ll wait to make my final judgment about the 2024 Cardinals until their roster tinkering is over, but for now, it’s not prime time ready. Not close.
It just seems like the field leadership was severely weakened by the departure of Pujols, Molina and Maddux. Marmol does not strike me as a strong leader, although I did catch some dugout shots now and then where he seemed to be conversing with players and showing some leadership qualities.
Who knows though. He also threw guys under the bus, which is really damning to clubhouse unity.
Marmol is obviously liked by upper management. He plays by their rules. But he seems to lack the intangibles. However, this 2024 campaign will provide a more complete look at this club. Another year like this one and I would think John McGraw would be fired if he were helming the club.
Cool deal, GC. We’ve had similar experiences. While I don’t remember it, for obvious reasons, I went to my first game when I was just two weeks old. I was raised as a Cardinals fan from birth.
I’ll never give up on them no matter how bad things go. I’m frustrated because I feel they have wasted two very good players in their prime. That’s not sat well with me these past couple of years. It has nothing to do with how many past winning seasons they’ve had.
They used to have seasoned leadership and now I’m not sure how you describe their management, but it’s not seasoned or very proficientat leading. That’s where part the problem starts. The upper management and lack of leadership. That must be fixed before they become successful again. Otherwise they will end up wasting two of the more talented players they’ve employed.
But not very good seasoned leadership, average at best in my opinion. Acquisitions of Goldschmidt and Arenado were great, not sure of any others. Also, many you wish you could have back. (Still wondering what management person on the Rockies he has incriminating pictures of.)
I’m not sure of a single FA signing that was really good. I guess you count Holiday as excellent, but he was a resign, not from another team. First year of Jhonny Peralta was really good, then 1 avg. year and 2 years of yuck. Still hopeful on Contreras and Gray.
(And by the way, 64 and saw first game in 66. Lived through the dreadful 70’s and early 00’s.)
Mo is not a seasoned leader at least not one that brings the team success. He’s just been at the same job for a long time. Junior keeps him on because he keeps costs down and profits high then spins the off-season to convince the fans they were trying.
John Mozeliak has been the GM for 16 years with the Cardinals. That is seasoned leadership.
You didn’t know he’s the devil? I’ve maintained my stand on MO forever. Can you do better? Probably. Can you do worse? Much. Nobody enjoyed last years debacle. But it’s not fair to judge MO by that. Has he done what I would do this off-season? Not even close. But I’m not going to personally attack the guy over it. I’m gonna wait and see. He clearly had a plan. The one thing I hope is they learned their lesson on keeping clubhouse issues in the clubhouse. But I wonder.
John Mozeliak has been the GM for 16 years with the Cardinals. That is seasoned leadership.
I agree with this. But I will point out that Custer was a seasoned leader at Little Big Horn and Napoleon was a seasoned leader at Waterloo.
John Mozeliak has been the GM for 16 years with the Cardinals. That is seasoned leadership.
No doubt he has been. Seasoned in my book doesn’t equate to time on the job. Seasoned is what the Rangers did last year that led to their championship. Hiring Bruce Bochy and a baseball man in Chris Young led to great outcomes. That’s not the formula the Cardinals have used since 2011 when LaRussa rode off into the sunset and the results have been on the steady decline since.
Mozeliak also did something most of his predecessors didn’t do, and that is he authored a last place finish. That’s on his resume and his actions over several seasons finally came home to roost. That can’t be denied. He gets the benefit of the doubt once, and so far I’m not impressed with the moves. Time will tell who is correct.
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