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I read something late last night that Marmol was quoted as wanting players that wanted to win a championship instead of padding their stats. Or something along those lines.
Does anybody have any idea what this is all about? It was about 2:00 in the morning when I read this and I was pretty tired so maybe I am not remembering it right.
Is there some trouble in the clubhouse?
r/Esteemed Rat
p.s. here’s a link
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/oli-marmol-takes-a-shot-at-certain-cardinals-players-praises-others-in-bizarre-comment/ar-AA1hxDO7I have no idea who Marmol’s so-called “selfish” players were, but maybe Tommy Edman doesn’t like being jerked from infield to outfield and back again, over and over. And maybe Nootbaar doesn’t enjoy being yanked in and out of the leadoff slot, depending on micro-mini-matchups. And maybe Arenado and Goldy don’t appreciate their Gold Glove defense sitting out the game while they play the DH role.
Pretty much every single position player, as well as some of the relievers (Gallegos especially), had an inconsistent role with this team in 2023, to one degree or another. And inconsistency is usually bad for both hitting and defense. Marmol has a messy mind, a bizarre indefensible arrogance, and a cheerful willingness to criticize his players publicly. He’s a bad baseball manager and a poor person in my book. He should spend a little more time looking around at how other much more successful managers work and less time mapping out his ornate platoon advantage stratagems.
Well said Bob, even the parts I don’t fully agree with.
The negatives that come with players facing the neverending churn of their defensive and offensive roles has been well know for 100 years. To baseball people, I mean. I have no idea what analysts and biomechanics pukes know or don’t know. A stable lineup and defense would do wonders, whatever the computer says.
I don’t really lay blame for it at Marmol’s feet. Floating out the ‘ornate platoon advantage strategems’ based upon the analytics department’s daily spew is exactly his job. I don’t fault him for doing it. The fact that it is absurd is not his fault as the method was in place when he arrived. That doesn’t mean he isn’t an arrogant twit.
Having said all that, the putrid performance of the players on the field tells me he is probably right about this. So who are they? We don’t know, but we can make common sense observations and extrapolate. It is pretty clear that having one thing on one one’s mind, that being a championship, rather than about one’s self, is entirely inconsistent with bailing on ST to go do something else that we think is cool and fun. I would start there. Maybe add names to it. That was a lot of guys. Some we don’t want to denigrate in any way. But it is what it is. That list of names would mean its a huge problem. But 20 games under suggests a huge problem. Some likely get a pass despite what Ollie says. As I have said before, its going to be a bare knuckles winter.
Here you go, blingboy..
This is ‘unconfirmed’. So we take it for what it is, I guess.
It’s real simple. This is another clear illustration of who this guy is. Get rid of him before it spreads any further.
No player with any dignity at all would want to play for this guy. Good luck attracting any quality SP’ers this off-season.
How old is Joe Maddon? Let me check. Okay, he is 69 as I type this.
But, since Marmol has been given the green light to return in 2024 this won’t happen. At least not for awhile. I totally believe if the Redbirds start the 2024 season out slow and are under .500 around Memorial Day then that will be it for Marmol. Joe Maddon would be 70 years old then.
I consider that linked Fansided story complete slop and hogwash. The premise is Ollie calling out players for a me first attitude. It then names three guys who are already routinely named as being on the chopping block for reasons having nothing to do with a me first attitude. Lack of hustle. Lack of skill. Inability to stay on the field. Poor fit for the system. Whatever. It then offers no suggestion that they even do have that attitude and just re-states the unrelated reasons they may go. Profound journalistic ineptitude. The story makes no sense. Some or all of them may go, but for other reasons, something which everyone already knew. I am particularly appalled that Contreras is included in that group. He may or may not fit with the Cardinals system, but he has done nothing but the best he can and try to cooperate. I dont know who Mark Powel is, but he should do something else, somewhere else.
I decided to post a list of 40 man players who did the WBC. It is hard or impossible to imagine some or all of these guys being “me first”. But that doesn’t matter because that is not what Marmol said. What he did say is this:
“I want a clubhouse full of guys that has one thing on their minds, and it’s not themselves. It’s winning a championship.”
So the issue here is whether going off to do the WBC instead of ST can be considered compatible with what Marmol says he wants, or whether it is incompatible.
Mikolos
Pallante
Gallegos
Romero
Zuniga
Arenado
Goldschmidt
Edman
O’Neill
Nootbaar
HerreraThis franchise is an absolute mess, especially at the top. I fear what next season could look like, but ugly comes to mind. Yes uglier than this season. I’m wondering when does Arenado start demanding a trade. No way he signed up for this mess.
Man, quite a statement from the manager. Watching the games and being distant from the clubhouse like all us “ordinary” fans, I could not tell you who I would speculate as selfish. It seemed that every guy out there was competing and showed some passion – a lot more passion than the manager.
But you wonder if some of the guys that went down with injuries late in the season might have overplayed their ailments in order to take the rest of the season off. Hard to believe that could happen as the medical personnel would likely know the extent of the ailment, but who knows. Guess we will find out when we see who is still standing come Spring 2024.
bling, I am honestly curious why you seem to think that players who played in the WBC (at the strong encouragement of MLB) are selfish. And why are Cardinals WBC players apparently more selfish than other team’s WBC players? Every organization participated.
I am also curious why you left Wainwright off the list of WBC Cardinals.
You’ve brought this up before, but I really, really think you are barking up the wrong tree.
O’Neill and Carlson should go, I never thought they were any good but Contreras, now, that is different. He’s a pain and it hurts that he can’t catch but he can hit so I would be very surprised if they even try to move him. The X factor is that this season was so bad that I think Junior might actually be scared of another season just like it…unless…they are drastic this winter. It is possible that they could do wild, crazy even expensive things. I doubt it but this is the first off-season in 27 years that it is possible.
Until I see it happen they won’t do anything crazy. More likely they trim around the edges and add fringe talent. It’s their modus operandi. They simply don’t think they are wrong, ever. Every one of them should have been fired, but the ownership is running it back in 2024. That tells me nothing major will happen and we’ll be having the same freaking conversation again this time next year. It’s all but certain like taxes and death.
Well, I think this is another example of Marmol shooting his mouth off when, even if it’s true, this is the kind of thing best handled behind a closed door. It’s management 101 and Marmol must have slept through that class.
I would not be sad to see him go. I think he’s an arrogant little twerp. I don’t know him personally but I think I’ve got a read on him.
ZTR and 1TD I agree with both of you. But it starts a step above him and goes to my post above. They don’t think they are wrong, about anything, ever. It’s unfettered arrogance. And it’s led this franchise down a toilet. This season has been in the making for a while and another one just like awaits just around the corner.
Perhaps it might be Marmol’s way of deflecting the blame for the 2023 season from himself to some others? Is that a possibility?
What’s interesting is that most of the guys on the 2023 club were on the 2022 team. Were some of them selfish last year as well, but the team just got better performances?
Usually losing comes down to less than average overall talent. Some bad luck can play into it – injuries, guys having down years, that sort of thing.
It seems like this “selfish players” bit is a straw man argument and deflects away from the real issue. We just did not have very good players, and I believe we also have weak leadership. What was the collective OPS of our third place hitters? We lacked punch at that key position, lacked starters who could give you six or seven good innings, and lacked a bullpen that could hold the score where it was.
And then we have a manager who appears to sleep walk through the games – no fire or passion.
FWIW, in his chat today, Goold defended Marmol for publicly criticizing O’Neill for lack of hustle, blaming the clubhouse for not handing it themselves.
Multiple people wanted him to name names as to who Marmol is referring to, but he said he doesn’t know. And he was there. Fansided surely was not.
The article was garbage. Conteras is not a problem. I think Marmol was talking about O’Neill. The Cardinals are not a mess. Changes need to be made but mostly adding effective pitchers.
Specific to that play where O’Neill got called out, both at home and by the manager – in watching the play it looked to me like Ty did let up a bit. But I did not take it as lack of hustle so much as it seemed like he thought he could score rather easily.
Then he went through an “oh man, this is going to be closer than I thought” moment and was thrown out.
As a manager I would have confronted the player about it and just ask him what happened out there, rather than speak publicly about it. Always talk to your players directly first – always.
I am honestly curious why you seem to think that players who played in the WBC (at the strong encouragement of MLB) are selfish.
Brian, I wish you would re-read what I said, as I was very careful not to say just what you accuse me of saying. The issue here is not whether players are ‘me first’. It is not whether they are ‘selfish’. Since that is not what Marmol said, it is not at issue, there is no reason to consider it, and I do not.
Marmol, who is and will continue to be, the manager said the first step is to weed out some players. He said exactly what type players he wanted and what he did not want. The issue is whether players who did WBC can be considered compatible with what Marmol has said he wanted.
I understand that when the answer to a question is uncomfortable a common tactic is to avoid answering it. That is fine, you don’t have to contemplate what your answer to that question would be. but don’t put words in my mouth or discourage others from contemplating the answer.
bling, it is not uncomfortable at all to say that no one knows the answer to your WBC theory (except perhaps Marmol himself). I cannot answer it, you cannot answer it, no one here can.
I believe the thought is far fetched. You suspect there may be something to it or you wouldn’t have brought it up again. I am simply asking you why you feel the way you do.
I will restate my earlier question to you with more precise and accurate wording. Hoping this is more acceptable.
“I am honestly curious why you are wondering if players who played in the WBC (at the strong encouragement of MLB) have their minds on themselves instead of winning championships.”
(This is using Marmol’s words (see next post), instead of “me too” or “selfish”. Though they seem to have similar meanings to me, I don’t want to get hung up on that.)
With the pregame ceremony over, there was a hammer of a quote from Marmol this morning:
"I want a clubhouse full of guys that has one thing on their minds, and it's not themselves. It's winning a championship. So, you start out by weeding those out."
— Jeff Jones (@jmjones) October 1, 2023
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