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Says Ken Rosenthal’s source. For those who subscribe to The Athletic, you can read his article here:
For those who don’t, MLB Trade Rumors summarizes it and asks some interesting questions.
Carlos Martinez has never lived up to expectations. You never know what you are going to get when he takes the mound. He’s another one that has displayed goofy antics over the years with his cup stacking and various hair colors. As far as I am concerned him and Jose Martinez can hit the road.
R/Esteemed Rat
Carlos Martinez has never lived up to expectations.
What were your expectations? Max Scherzer? He’s been one of the top 20 or so starters in the league since he began starting, and has been very good from the bullpen when he’s not starting. I don’t know what more you can expect.
As for the other comments, not all of us are stodgy old codgers who expect ballplayers to never have any fun while they play a *game.* 😉
What were your expectations? Max Scherzer? He’s been one of the top 20 or so starters in the league since he began starting, and has been very good from the bullpen when he’s not starting. I don’t know what more you can expect.
I think you hit on the two things here. Expectations were very high, e.g., Baby Pedro. So while you set yourself up for failure to expect a Max Scherzer, the bar was set very high for CMart. Also, he was “supposed” to be a top of the rotation starter. His number of appearances as a reliever is now almost equal to his number of starts. He wasn’t given a $51 million contract at age 25 to be a good reliever.
I think you hit on the two things here. Expectations were very high, e.g., Baby Pedro. So while you set yourself up for failure to expect a Max Scherzer, the bar was set very high for CMart. Also, he was “supposed” to be a top of the rotation starter. His number of appearances as a reliever is now almost equal to his number of starts. He wasn’t given a $51 million contract at age 25 to be a good reliever.
I guess maybe I wasn’t as into the prospect scene back then, but I don’t recall Carlos being a uberprospect. He was well within the top 50 as I recall, but not top ten or even the #1 Cards pitching prospect (Miller for sure was higher and in some cases Rosenthal and Wacha seemed to be well thought of enough to be in the conversation). So while they may have said things like “Baby Pedro,” his status as a top 15-20 SP is hardly an abject failure. Sure, he’s been hurt the last two years but has provided value from the pen and will probably go back to starting next year and be well worth his extension.
To wish him to hit the road seems short sighted at best.
his status as a top 15-20 SP is hardly an abject failure.
Well fine, if you want to move the goal posts to the next field, but the point was he hasn’t lived up to expectations. To argue that he has at this point if ridiculous.
The Reyes situation will continue to be a factor regarding CMart’s status. Plans for both were much different entering this season.
ps. Hudson has filled in nicely in the rotation so there’s that.
Well fine, if you want to move the goal posts to the next field, but the point was he hasn’t lived up to expectations. To argue that he has at this point if ridiculous.
Whose expectations? Your’s? The team’s? Rat’s?
Fact is he hasn’t lived up to anybody’s expectations. Those expectations might vary from person to person to team, etc, etc. But it cannot be argued that he has lived up to anybody’s expectations.
Fact is he hasn’t lived up to anybody’s expectations. Those expectations might vary from person to person to team, etc, etc. But it cannot be argued that he has lived up to anybody’s expectations.
That’s not a fact, that’s your opinion. And even he hasn’t fully lived up to your expectations or the expectations of others, simply trading him to trade him is asinine. That’s when you lose trades and set your team even further back than it currently is. The Cards did that with Pham last year and most likely lost that trade. But hey, we don’t have a guy on the team who drops the swear words that offend people.
I have no idea what line of work you are in, and it does not matter. If you made angry public statements including profanity about your company and your bosses, and were not repentant about it, I’d bet that you wouldn’t land as softly as Pham did. But athletes are “special” and don’t have to follow common respect expected from other grown adults.
Having said that, I don’t see that Martinez has anything to do with Pham.
Who wants to trade him just to trade him???
I would like to think we might get something in return that may eventually do good things for us. It doesn’t look like that after 6-7 years that Martinez is going to be a big help to us.
Having said that, I don’t see that Martinez has anything to do with Pham.
They traded Pham just to trade him off the team and lost the trade. Mo even insinuated as such in previous interviews and now admits he wouldn’t make the trade with the benefit of hindsight. What I was comparing is that some posters on here want to trade players just to trade them simply because they don’t like them. CMart (hair) and JMart (goofball) are frequent targets on this site by certain posters because they don’t the players and they’d give these guys away if they could. You can’t keep giving away players simply because you don’t like them.
I have no idea what line of work you are in, and it does not matter. If you made angry public statements including profanity about your company and your bosses, and were not repentant about it, I’d bet that you wouldn’t land as softly as Pham did. But athletes are “special” and don’t have to follow common respect expected from other grown adults.
I would have gotten fired for the social media tirade that Yadi went on, but I didn’t see many people calling for his head.
They are special, whether we want to admit it or not.
As the old saying goes, you make excuses for the stars and examples out of the non-stars. The problem with the Pham situation is that the front office misidentified which category Pham fit in.
I agree that trading any player “just to make a trade” is conceptually a bad idea, but we have no idea if Martinez is going to be traded, why and what he would fetch in return.
Continuing to compare Molina swearing at internet tough guys about a fellow catcher being injured intentionally to Pham swearing about his bosses in a national magazine because he personally feels perpetually disrespected is nowhere near the same. Why keep making this false equivalency?
Whose expectations? Your’s? The team’s? Rat’s?
All three, of course. 🙂 CMart was always projected as high potential because of his electric arm. He was scouted and stood out as a potential star when he was 17 by Boston. He was viewed as comparable to first round draft material and his signing bonus with the Cards was consistent with that. He moved up through the lower minors ahead of pace. He was high on the prospect rankings. Many had him as elite reliever material or top of rotation starter potential. The team continued to have high projections for him after coming to the big club by inking him to the muli-year, multi-million dollar contract ahead of schedule. All of that is based on a broad spectrum of opinions and expectations.
I know you know all this as well as I do. So now in his 7th MLB year, he is one of our relievers, moving into the closer role only because Hicks is out. So I ask you, have his accomplishments lived up to your expectations for him to this date? I accept your opinion if you think he has truly met expectations, but will be surprised. None of this is to say he hasn’t been impacted by injuries or can’t meet my expectations later. I hope he does.
So I spent some time on a spreadsheet of prospects for the 2013 season. I used MLB’s top 100 list because it was convenient. Carlos was rated the #32 prospect there. Those guys are, of course, highly rated, but often seen as more mid to front of rotation guys, and not necessarily #1 starters. So I went through and checked stats on every pitcher in MLB.com’s top 100 that year. Here is the list (stats to come in the next post):
2. Dylan Bundy
5. Taijuan Walker
7. Jose Fernandez
8. Zack Wheeler
9. Gerrit Cole
10. Tyler Skaggs
14. Jameson Taillon
16. Trevor Bauer
17. Danny Hultzen
23. Archie Bradley
24. Shelby Miller
28. Noah Syndergaard
30. Julio Teheran
32. Carlos Martinez
33. Kyle Zimmer
34. Aaron Sanchez
36. Kevin Gausman
37. Matt Barnes
39. Alex Meyer
42. Trevor Rosenthal
42(?) Taylor Guerrieri-A duplicate?
43. Jake Odorizzi
44. Chris Archer
47. Kyle Gibson
49. Robert StephensonThere are certainly some good arms on the list, as this was a solid class of pitchers overall. On the down side, the tragedy of Jose Fernandez and similarly Tyler Skaggs hangs over this class (Oscar Taveras was 3rd as well-sad all around).
Carlos’ ranks in this class of 25 pitchers:
WAR: 4th-14.7 (Cole-19.9, Teheran-19.5 and Bauer-16.3 ahead)
Peak WAR: 3rd-5.3 (Fernandez-6.3, Bauer 5.7 ahead)
Wins: 7th-57 (Cole-83)
Innings: 8th-838 (Teheran-1292)
Strikeouts: 6th-822 (Archer-1304)
FIP: 6th-3.51 (Fernandez-2.44, Rosenthal 2.73, Syndergaard 2.87)
WHIP: 9th-1.276 (Fernandez-1.054)
ERA: 4th-3.36 (Fernandez-2.58, Syndergaard 3.22, Cole 3.35)So he’s anywhere between the 4th-8th best pitcher from his class, and I’d argue toward the front of it, with Fernandez (RIP), Cole, and Bauer probably better (Bauer really didn’t come on until 2017 though, sort of like Cole really took off once he got to Houston) and Teheran behind with Thor being an injury incomplete. There are some other solid pitchers, but none of whom have a real case to have had better careers than Carlos so far. Mind you, these are top 50 prospects, not just any pitchers.
So for Carlos to be one of the top pitchers in his class even though there were many pitchers rated above him speaks to him doing what? Wildly under-performing expectations, you say? The data doesn’t support it.
I mean yeah he hasn’t turned into that top of the rotation starter due to injury but the guy is a 2 time all-star and can seem to thrive in whatever role we put him in when he’s right. Last night was an example of what he can be like when things go wrong not only by his doing but the player beside him and pretty much sums up his career. So much potential but it’s the little things that likely keep him from his full potential.
Regardless with Hicks out you can’t really afford to deal him. I don’t have the supreme confidence anyone can fill his role with the amount of work that guys like Brebbia and Gant have put in. Miller maybe to being a closer before. I’ve always said Ponce’s stuff at times profiles as a late inning relief pitcher but he’s starting (for now) will be given a couple more opportunities.
Honestly when I saw this rumor I nearly laughed it off. I thought they had the wrong Martinez in the article. O’Neill just started hitting a bit and Thomas I think there’s real possibility could get a real look in CF next season if Bader continues to swing and miss. I know Thomas has had a sub par season compared to 2018.
I cannot come up with a scenario where trading any of these guys makes sense. O’Neill has way too high of a ceiling to send him packing before you give him a legitimate shot to play every day. If he does approach his potential, he is exactly what our sagging offense needs.
With Hicks out for an extended time, Martinez is highly valuable in the bullpen. Plus he can return to a starters role in the future if needed.
Thomas won’t bring back anything, so unless they want to bring in another 4A type guy at a different position then it seems unlikely you would be able to deal him. Plus he has shown enough that you should see more of him before making a deal, as he could end up being a decent major leaguer. Just too early to tell on him.
I think this is just one of those situations where when you get down to it, no one is truly non-tradable. So you could come up with an article like this on anyone. But dealing those three is highly unlikely as you are apt to get less value in return, except for perhaps Martinez, and two of them especially can be a big part of what the club needs the rest of 2019 and onward.
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