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There are a lot of things that are said that cause me to roll my eyes or shake my head. Sometimes people seem overly positive about the Cardinals. Oftentimes they are overly negative. On the internet, we tend to speak in extreme terms – like something is either the best or worst thing ever, which usually isn’t actually true. We use hindsight to criticize or highlight lots of moves. It’s easy to do. And normally I don’t mind it to much and I just do like I said above – roll my eyes a bit or shake my head. But there’s one take that I see over and over again that drives me crazy – because it is so absurd. But it gets repeated and repeated on Cardinals sites like this one. That is that the Cardinals were dumb to let Adolis Garcia go for cash to the Rangers.
Sure, Adolis Garcia is an all-star now. He’s driving in over 100 runs this year. Man would it be great to have that guy on our team. It’s easy to criticize not having him here if you don’t understand how it came to be. That’s why I’d like to talk about the context. Because context is really important in every move.
Adolis Garcia was acquired by the Cardinals back in 2017. He was a Cuban defector that had just recently played parts of his 2016 season in both Japan and Cuba where he’d run an OPS around .650. 2017 would be his age 24 season so he wasn’t particularly young at that point. The Cardinals decided to try him out in AA. He played 84 games while putting up a .815 OPS while striking out around 25% of the time. Good numbers for sure. So the Cardinals promoted him midseason to AAA. In 40 games he ran around the same OPS with some climbing strikeout numbers. At that point he wasn’t on the 40-man so there was no reason to promote him. He started the 2018 season then at Memphis in AAA.
That next season (2018) at 25 years old in Memphis, he played in 112 games and his power took off. He hit a solid 22 home runs. That’s not Luken Baker or Moises Gomez power, but it was very solid. His OPS dropped a little to .781, which is good, but nothing stellar for the Pacific Coast League, which generally favors hitters. Still, the Cards saw something they liked so they put him on the 40-man roster and promoted him to St. Louis for a short stint. But in 17 plate appearances he hit .118 with a double and single being his only hits. He also struck out 7 times – so around 40%.
(To Be Continued)
In his age 26 season in 2019, Adolis was back at Memphis to start the season. He was competing for playing time with Randy Arozarena, Dylan Carlson, Lane Thomas, and Tyler O’Neill. TCN rated him as the #16 prospect (right after Luken Baker). He still got to play in most games, but he was considered to be by far the worst defender of those 5 guys. The plus for Adolis was that his power took off. In 529 plate appearances, he hit 32 home runs and 22 doubles. But he struck out 159 times. And he only walked in 22 at bats, which is crazy low for a guy with that power. So basically, he added power but became a totally undisciplined hitter. He also decided to try to steal more bases and was gunned down in 10 out of 24 attempts. The Cards had a log jam of outfielders after that season and a 40-man roster crunch. Their other outfielders were younger and more promising. Therefore, they sold Adolis to the Rangers for cash.
2020 happened. Adolis basically got a lost season. He took 7 plate appearances with the Rangers with a single and a walk and 4 strikeouts. Now he was 27. So the Rangers just DFA’d him. And any other team that wanted him could have taken him for nothing other than a 40-man roster spot. But no one wanted him. So he just went to the minors for the Rangers but there were no minors that season.
At age 28 in the 2021 season, Adolis made the Rangers roster. He wound up starting in RF and playing most of the season with 622 plate appearances. He slugged 31 home runs. But he struck out 194 times. And he walked just 32 times. So his OBP was only .286. His .OPS was .741. Basically an all or nothing hitter – strikeout or homer. With fairly bad defense. And now 2 years removed from the Cardinals.
Last season in 2022 was mostly a repeat of 2021 except that the numbers became maybe just a little bit better. In 657 plate appearances (35 more than 2021), Adolis hit 27 home runs. But he cut his strikeouts to 183 and upped his walks to 40. He also added 8 doubles more than the previous season. His final OPS was .756. Good, but not great. Still mostly 2 true outcomes with fairly bad defense. Good player overall, but not great because of the defensive limitations.
This season Adolis really broke out with 39 home runs and 107 RBI. He also started taking some walks (65 of them) and increased his OBP to a respectable .328 while running an OPS of .836. He still plays poor defense. But he’s a real middle of the line-up masher. However, this is now 4 seasons removed from him being with the Cardinals.
Would you have made a different decision with Adolis? He was getting old for a prospect and was swinging at everything in Memphis. And, he was a bad defender. And we had 4 other more promising outfielders at the time that needed playing time. How do you look in a crystal ball and say, yeah, I think this guy is going to be really good in 3-4 years so we just need to hold onto him and keep him on the 40-man roster until he does that? And to add to it, the Rangers gave up on him too. They DFA’d him because they didn’t think he was worth keeping. And then not one other team took him for free because no other team saw potential in him.
Jnevel, The Rangers would have seen the same numbers on a spead sheet as the Cardinals did. They must have been looking at something else and the Cardinals weren’t.
Or they didn’t have many outfield prospects and had an open 40-man spot and decided he was worth a shot. But then after getting a good look at him, they gave up on him too and let him go.
That is a lot of information Jnevel. Thanks for the efforts.
I recall when we signed him originally I was disappointed at the time we took him. I don’t recall the exact timing but I think it may have been the same year we were bridesmaids to the White Sox in signing Luis Robert and I thought the Cardinals had gone cheap in signing Robert Lite. As it turned out Garcia has been much closer to Robert than expected, just not with the Cardinals. Go figure.
I still find it a little hard to believe that he was only worth cash considerations based on his AA and AAA numbers. Surely he would have worth a Class A player or something?
I think what really bothers Cardinal fans is why would a player like that blossom that much after he leaves the organization. Is it just completely bad luck on our part? That is difficult to accept.
I understand that argument GSCOTTAR. The why did he get better with the Rangers and not us argument. Although it did take him 3 more seasons to get there.
I just don’t like the Cardinals were dumb and the Rangers were smart argument. Because the Cardinals at least got cash. The Rangers were willing to give him away for nothing. He was basically what James Naile or Kramer Robertson were to the Cardinals 2 seasons back (end of roster fluff that is expendable). And then no other organization offered to take him on for free. Just like when the Cards DFA’d Naile. Because no one saw much promise in him.
It just is. The Cardinals didn’t do anything wrong. The Rangers didn’t do anything magic to develope Garcia. Many times it takes awhile for foreign players to adjust to living in a strange country and the already difficult task of Pro ball. Hindsight is easy.
I think what really bothers Cardinal fans is why would a player like that blossom that much after he leaves the organization.
This is certainly a fair concern because it’s not like Garcia is a rare case in recent years of leaving the org and then doing leaps and bounds better. It’s a trend. Perhaps part of it’s the confusing and volatile lineup patterns we have seen so often over the last few years. Players need more routine to excel, especially newcomers in development. Also, it seems like many of the guys who are called up don’t get much of a look or chance to gain a rhythm before they are sent back down. And when they do, they are not set up for best chance at success due to the lack of predictable roles.
The point about Garcia being DFA’d and nobody else picking him up is overplayed as a defense for Mo, IMO. The Cards and Cards alone saw him play every day for 3 seasons. The Rangers DFA’d him after one covid non-season. He played just 21 innings with 7 plate appearances in the Rangers’ org before they DFA’d him, so they didn’t get much of an eval on him. Plus they had next to nothing invested in him and needed to clear roster space for a pitcher (Foltynewicz) they signed.
And why would Garcia have been on the radars of the other 28 teams to make a quick grab for him? What is it, they get 3 days to claim him? No particular reason is the answer.
Yep, it’s easy to say what should’ve been done in hindsight, but they don’t pay Johnny and his crew the big bucks for hindsight. To build a winner, they need Johnny to start delivering some foresight.
Jnevel, I don’t agree with some of your statements.
The why did he get better with the Rangers and not us argument. Although it did take him 3 more seasons to get there.
It didn’t take him 3 more seasons. 2020 was not a season. His first real season with the Rangers was pretty darn good. You said he was an All-Star now, but he was also an All-Star in 2021. He was a member of the AL All-Star team in his rookie season and was 4th for the Rookie of the Year Award and had 3.7 WAR. He had about the same WAR in 2022 and then even better this year. So Garcia has had nothing but good seasons for the Rangers.
The next area is where you laid out a recurring theme of Garcia being a poor defender. For example, in 2021 you said he played “fairly bad defense.” For 2022 you said he played “fairly bad defense” and was “not great because of the defensive limitations.” And about 2023 you said “he still plays poor defense.”
Your take here baffles me. The Rangers think Garcia is about the best RFer in MLB and some of the stats support that. If the Gold Glove were determined solely by the SABR Defense Index, Garcia would be the winner of the AL Right Field GG this year based on the latest data. Of course voting is also part of the criteria. He is 1st for RFers and 5th overall for all defenders.
For the combined 2021 thru 2023 seasons, Garcia is 3rd in all of MLB for Defensive Runs Saved among RFers, even ahead of Mookie Betts, even though Betts has played more games than Garcia in RF (DRS is a counting stat). He is 4 behind Tucker (27 to 23) in DRS, but Tucker has played more games in RF (423 to 268) during these 3 seasons. So on a rate basis, Garcia would be 2nd overall. He was 1st in 2021 in DRS and his defensive play has been consistently good.
If you want to go by UZR over those 3 seasons, Garcia is 2nd in MLB for RFers (behind Mookie Betts). When I looked at the two competing overall defensive stats (UZR and DRS) in aggregate, it looks to me like Garcia scores better (more consistently high in both) than any of the other RFers in MLB.
I was not aware that Garcia was thought of as such a bad defensive prospect. All I had read was he had a plus arm. So if (like you said) he was considered by the Cards as “by far the worst defender” among Thomas, Carlson, Arozarena, and O’Neill, when he is actually one of the top RFers in MLB, it just adds to what became obviously clear in 2023. The Cards have some people in key decision making positions who don’t know didley about OF defense.
he was also an All-Star in 2021. He was a member of the AL All-Star team in his rookie season and was 4th for the Rookie of the Year Award and had 3.7 WAR. He had about the same WAR in 2022 and then even better this year. So Garcia has had nothing but good seasons for the Rangers.
His good seasons began with us before the pandemic unless you don’t like the 32 Hrs and 96 RBIs at AAA in 2019. He played mostly RF with 30+ games in CF that year, so we knew he was playable defensively. We had a number of outfielders and chose to retain others and not him. That is the bottom line, however much revision, cherry picking and rationalizing one wants to do.
Euro – I may be mistaken on his defense. I saw him play some CF in the minors and he looked pretty ugly so they moved him to RF but he still never looked good getting to balls. He has always had a very good arm though. It looks like 2021 was a fluky year where he looked incredible defensively, but otherwise he’s been average at fielding and great at throwing runners out. For instance, 2022 was 4 defensive runs saved but 3 were from his arm. In 2023, he was -1 in the field, but then picked up a positive 7 from his arm to make him overall at +6. That arm has really propped up his defensive numbers. And that’s fine. It counts all the same. I just had remembered seeing a guy that didn’t look all that comfortable in the field. Apparently he’s now improved to average for a right fielder at getting to balls, but still has a cannon arm.
I don’t think his 2021 offensive numbers look very good. Bad OBP. Average OPS with a 96 WRC+(and considering he’s a RF, he should have had a higher OPS or WRC+ to be good). Plus he struck out over 30% of the time. He did slug well, stayed healthy, and it looks like he has his best defensive season that year to prop him up to 3.0 FWAR. 2022 is pretty much a repeat but he was able to strike out 27% of the time instead of 31%, walk a little more, and add a few doubles. At that point he was hitting 10% above league average instead of 4% below. That’s the season (3 years later) that he starts to turn the corner and look better. This year though has been the big leap forward.
Like KCB said, sometimes guys just improve with age/time. It just took Adolis a while to get there. I’m glad for him. I’ll be rooting for he and Montgomery to give the Rangers their first ring.
Euro said:
And why would Garcia have been on the radars of the other 28 teams to make a quick grab for him? What is it, they get 3 days to claim him?
All teams scout every organization, especially the higher levels, and have reports on every player precisely for occasions such as these when a quick call has to be made. It would be a mistake to suggest Garcia was an unknown. There was “a book” on him at the time.
It is great he improved and it would have been ideal if it happened as a Cardinal, but guys do slip through the cracks for every organization. The Rangers are fortunate they were able to keep him or they would be right alongside the Cards on the second-guessing stand had Garcia emerged instead with what would have been his third organization.
P.S. Waivers are seven days.
All teams scout every organization, especially the higher levels, and have reports on every player precisely for occasions such as these when a quick call has to be made. It would be a mistake to suggest Garcia was an unknown. There was “a book” on him at the time.
Obviously teams have “a book” on the several hundred players you refer to. Stale books for sure. How much in the way of recent active scouting do you think the other teams had done on Garcia over the last few season prior to his DFA? To suggest many teams are actively scouting guys like Garcia on a continuous basis is a mistake. I wasn’t suggesting Garcia was an unknown, just that teams aren’t usually postured to make a move on a very short turn for players with little recent in-depth scouting and thought to be marginal by the very fact they are being waived. It’s why the vast majority of outright/release waivers go unclaimed.
P.S. Waivers are seven days.
This is wrong. I was remembering 3 days, but after checking I found it to be 2 days, or 47 hours to be precise. The MLB waiver list is updated at 2PM each business day and the waiver claim/clearing is decided for a particular player at 1PM two days later.
blingboy
His good seasons began with us before the pandemic unless you don’t like the 32 Hrs and 96 RBIs at AAA in 2019. He played mostly RF with 30+ games in CF that year, so we knew he was playable defensively. We had a number of outfielders and chose to retain others and not him. That is the bottom line, however much revision, cherry picking and rationalizing one wants to do.
I love statements like this. Do you think Moises Gomez should be held onto at all costs then? He had 39 HRs and 94 RBIs last year and 30 HRs this year. What a stud! Right?
Obviously there is more to hitting than just counting stats. His wRC+ for 2019 was 88, with 100 being average. That was a drop from 2018, when he had a 95 wRC+. Garcia had the worst K:BB ratio in the system too.
What’s interesting is the amount of discussion at the time about this. One poster brought up Chris Mitchell’s KATOH ratings (minors):
1. Dylan Carlson 21.9 (562 PA)
2. Justin Williams 12.8 (1206 PA)
3. Tyler O’Neill 12.3 (1405 PA)
4. Oscar Mercado 10.6 (950 PA)
5. Harrison Bader 10.3 (996 PA)
6. Randy Arozarena 9.3 (1007 PA)
7. Lane Thomas 8.4 (879 PA)
8. Adolis Garcia 1.5 (1446 PA)Yikes! Mitchell probably needs to retire his system (LOL)
You yourself weren’t very high on Garcia when he was with the Cardinals, never commenting on him even once until he started surging with the Rangers:
blingboy
Maybe O’Neill is the next Adolis Garcia. Both strike out a lolI will commend Gscottar. He was always a big Garcia supporter and was adament that both the Cardinals and Rangers made a mistake in DFA-ing him.
I think most were actually mad that the Cardinals kept Lane Thomas over Garcia. We see how that has now turned out too. Fact is, we had some really good outfield talent and should’ve probably held onto them much longer than we did, despite the logjam. Or, more optimally, traded the guys at their peak (O’Neill, Carlson) and rely on the next man up, but who would’ve be okay with that at the time? Very few I imagine.
Brian Walton
It is great he improved and it would have been ideal if it happened as a Cardinal, but guys do slip through the cracks for every organization.
The amount of Cardinals doing well on others’ rosters is surprisingly high. Thomas Arozarena and Garcia we know, but Urias, Diaz, Sosa, Leone, Brebbia, Wisdom, Oviedo. It does seem like we give more than we get in the 2020s.
Guys that we got ~ Romero, King, Gallegos, maybe Palacios…but going further back, Gant and Jose Martinez were great examples of this.
Euro, we will have to agree to disagree on how much we think other teams may have known about Garcia. He already had almost 300 games of Triple-A experience as well as a month in MLB before being waived. Scouts are usually assigned to cover certain organizations or leagues and I am quite sure Garcia was well known.
Regarding waivers, I believe my prior comment to be accurate. Here are the rules. There are different kinds of waivers and the specifics can vary by time of the year, so it can be complicated. I think that Number 1 applies in this case.
Once secured, Outright Assignment Waivers remain in effect for a set period of time:
1. Seven days or until the end of the waiver period (whichever comes first) for Outright Assignment Waivers secured September 1st through the 30th day of the MLB regular season.
2. The entire waiver period for Outright Assignment Waivers secured starting on the 31st day of the MLB regular season through August 31st.
3. 72 hours if the player is on Optional Assignment to the minors or on a Disabled List.
Having said all that, the length of the time window really doesn’t matter. It isn’t as if teams would rush to scout a player just put on waivers, whether they had two days or a week. It was too late by then. They would go by their prior scouting reports.
Euro Dandy
How much in the way of recent active scouting do you think the other teams had done on Garcia over the last few season prior to his DFA?Which DFA? When the Cardinals DFA’d him or when the Rangers did and no one claimed him?
John Blake
@RangerBlake
February 10, 2021
The Rangers have announced the signing of free agent RHP Mike Foltynewicz to a one-year contract for 2021. OF Adolis Garcia has been designated for assignment to make room for Foltynewicz on the 40-man roster. Foltynewicz is 44-42 lifetime with HOU and ATL. Was 2019 NL All-Star.Pads said:
The amount of Cardinals doing well on others’ rosters is surprisingly high. Thomas Arozarena and Garcia we know, but Urias, Diaz, Sosa, Leone, Brebbia, Wisdom, Oviedo. It does seem like we give more than we get in the 2020s.
The outfielders get all the attention for good reason. Two of the three developed into All-Stars. The second group of guys named are role players at best. None of them would be difference makers if still Cardinals, though I feel that Oviedo is still developing. But in return for him, they got an important starting pitcher who helped them make the playoffs that year. That is how trades are supposed to work, so I do not consider that an example of failure.
I love statements like this. Do you think Moises Gomez should be held onto at all costs then? He had 39 HRs and 94 RBIs last year and 30 HRs this year. What a stud! Right?
Did you miss this part: “He played mostly RF with 30+ games in CF that year, so we knew he was playable defensively.” Or do you think Gomez and Garcia are comparable densively. Which is it?
I only remember Garcia being known for his arm in the minors. Gomez has played CF too, but much less than Garcia did.
Regarding waivers, I believe my prior comment to be accurate. Here are the rules. There are different kinds of waivers and the specifics can vary by time of the year, so it can be complicated. I think that Number 1 applies in this case.
Once secured, Outright Assignment Waivers remain in effect for a set period of time:
1. Seven days or until the end of the waiver period (whichever comes first) for Outright Assignment Waivers secured September 1st through the 30th day of the MLB regular season.
2. The entire waiver period for Outright Assignment Waivers secured starting on the 31st day of the MLB regular season through August 31st.
3. 72 hours if the player is on Optional Assignment to the minors or on a Disabled List.
Brian, your understanding is off because you are quoting info on the “waiver period,” and not the “claiming period.” Those rules are not relevant to what we were talking about. We were talking about the claiming period — which is a 47-hour window.
The waiver period rules you posted are relevant for an approved, “secured” waiver. The “securing” or “granting” of a waiver doesn’t happen until after the player clears waivers. Remember what a waiver is. It is permission granted for certain assignments of player contracts (such as for Garcia to fulfill his contractual obligations in AAA) or for the unconditional release of a player.
Just look at the waiver period in your item number 2. That’s a period of about 120 days during the regular season. Teams certainly don’t have 120 days to claim a player off waivers during the regular season. But once the waiver is secured, the team who obtained the waiver does have a 120-day waiver period to play the guy in AAA.
I believe 2 days versus 7 days to make a claim could very well make a meaningful difference — depends on the specific transaction. But yeah, teams will have to rely on scouting reports that are most likely a bit dated and most GMs are not going to pull the trigger with that uncertainty in a tight window on most players. Anyway, the info I am providing is available off the MLBPA site of rules for the CBA and MLB Rules on contractual matters. Here is an excerpt on the claiming period:
(3) Claiming Period. The period in which a Club may claim a
player on whom waivers have been sought is as follows:(A) Spring Training/In-Season Waivers. Except as provided for in Rule 8(b)(3)(B), the period in which a Club may claim a player on whom waivers have been sought is as follows:
Waivers Requested by ————— Waiver Claim Must Be
2:00 p.m. ————————– Entered by
Eastern Time on:—————– 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time on:
Monday ——————————– Wednesday
Tuesday ——————————- Thursday
Wednesday —————————– Friday
Thursday —————————— Saturday
Friday ——————————– Sunday
Saturday —————————— Monday
Sunday ——————————– Tuesday(B) Off-Season and End-of-Spring Training Waivers. When
waivers are requested during the periods set forth in Rules
8(b)(1)(B) and 8(b)(1)(C), the period in which a Club may claim a player on whom waivers have been sought is as follows:Waivers Requested by ————— Waiver Claim Must Be
2:00 p.m. ————————– Entered by
Eastern Time on:—————– 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time on:
Monday ——————————– Wednesday
Tuesday ——————————- Thursday
Wednesday —————————– Friday
Thursday —————————— Monday
Friday ——————————– TuesdayLastly, here is an excerpt on the rules you posted (waiver period). It’s not exactly as you posted, so maybe somethings were paraphrased by your source.
(4) Grant of Waivers and Effective Periods. In the event no claims are made before the deadline, waivers of the type requested are obtained, and the Commissioner or the Commissioner’s designee shall so notify the requesting Club. Outright assignment waivers obtained between September 1 and the 30th day of the following championship season (as determined by the first scheduled championship season game, excluding international openers), inclusive, shall be in effect until 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time on the seventh day after the date they were obtained, or until 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time on the 30th day of the championship season, whichever comes first. Outright assignment waivers obtained on and after the 31st day of the championship season shall be in effect until one hour following the Major League Trade Deadline described in Rule 6(d)(3); and outright assignment waivers obtained after the Major League Trade Deadline shall be in effect until midnight, Eastern Time on August 31, inclusive.
Watching Garcia some he has looked like a good defender, and as has been mentioned has a great arm.
I can understand the Cardinals seeing him as lower in the pecking order than others at the time. But unless you can get some value for a guy, get a player where you are thin for a guy where you have depth, I don’t like selling off a player. If it gets to that, just keep him and let him compete.
The intangible factor for me with Garcia is his physical appearance. The guy just looks like a stud. When you have a guy like that, an athletic guy that looks the part, you want to give him more time than you would a guy like say Luken Baker.
So according to the original poster we had 5 outfielders at Memphis in 2019 competing for playing time!
O’Neill
Carlson
Garcia
Arozarena
Thomas
And our organization chose to keep the first 2 over the bottom three and that ain’t good! If we would have kept the bottom three over the top two we would be celebrating Mo but alas it didn’t happen! I am convinced we are gonna do the same thing with Baker and Gomez we did with Thomas Arozarena and Garcia! I predict Baker or Gomez will be an All star and there will be people on here that will justify it, but my gosh, how many quality players are we gonna lose before heads start to roll?
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