August 24, 2017 at 9:21 am #31494
trading Wacha has merit…but knee jerk reaction trading him is not what i mean… should he finish strong…he will have tremendous value… and in THAT case trading him in a deal for a major upgrade somewhere else could be very worthwhile and definitely on the table
trading him for nothign is not…if he is so so the rest of the way…we definitely keep him and build off the successes of this yearAugust 25, 2017 at 7:43 am #31566
Listen to Wagee….
LOL, Wacha has a bad outing and here we go again with the trade Wacha BS. The Cardinals are not going to trade Wacha, period, end of story.August 25, 2017 at 8:49 am #31583
I am not on one side or the other in the trade Wacha discussion (notice the PC wording – no animals were harmed in the making of this post).
However, it may be required to include at least one good, established major leaguer in a trade for an offensive upgrade this winter. If it was a starter, fans would likely prefer Leake, which is the same reason other teams would likely prefer someone else. Unless Wacha turns around his recent downturn, that and his health history could limit trade interest.
My only point is that you have to give quality to get quality and this current roster should have very few untouchables, IMO.
August 25, 2017 at 10:02 am #31596
- This reply was modified 6 months ago by Brian Walton.
I agree Brian…
I dont advocating trading a good cheap good starter like Wacha
I am not jumping on a few bad outings… in fact i really want to keep him, in fact the only reason i woudl advocate trading him would be IF he was NOT bad (if you actually read my posts this woudl be clear)
with the returns given for Quintana and Gray, good starting pitching with control and cheap cost go ALONG way in value…it would be unwise for us to not make him available if we could get a return that maxes his value or goes above. Shoudl he only be So So the rest of the way his value woudl diminish and I woudl be against trading him at low value. I think he’s way more valuable to us than he is as a trade chip unless his value is very high
It’s like I am being attacked for a position i am not even taking.
If we had Piscotty, Wacha, Pham, Grichuk, Gyorko, even Garcia ( and maybe even Carp, and Leake) all available in the offseason…adding that kind of MLB proven talent to a couple prospects would go along way in getting BIG upgrade pieces back
Only using prospects is just not going to do it if we take Reyes and Kelly off the tableAugust 25, 2017 at 10:20 am #31597
A simple disagreement with a point of view is not an attack. If you post your opinion, you need to be prepared for the likelihood that not everyone will agree.August 25, 2017 at 11:13 am #31599
he/she presents my argument as:
one bad outing of Wacha means i want to trade him (he posts this in another thread too),
i NEVER said i want to trade Wacha because he is having a few bad outings, and i have blatantly said so multiple times…
I dont care about disagreements…but when someone is combatting you on a position you arent even taking that is what can be frustrating..
I think you’d rightfully defend your position if someone “disagreed” with you about something you weren’t even saying….if you posted an article about your thoughts and someone laughed at you and misrepresented and disagreed with you about things you werent even saying i am SURE you would call it out…havent we seen that pretty clearly in the back and forth about HElsley and prospect rankings?
“attacked” may be too strong a word…so maybe the semantics are off…but still when someone starts their post rebutting you with “LOL” and then follows that with rebutting you on a position you arent saying that is pretty ridiculous…and worth defending… is it an “attack” maybe that is too harsh…i can see that…but LOLing at someone with a retort that obviously isnt about what you actually wrote is pretty crazy….
i am the first to criticize my own posts and opinions and recognize my faults all the time…but being “disagreed” with about something you didnt even say and even spoke specifically against is worth pointing out
i post my opinions all the time…i expect my opinion to not be agreed with…but the rebuttals are petty and not even a disagreement with me as they arent even about what i said…
I am moving on….but i wont stop defending my representation of my opinion…even if it is a clumsy opinion it deserves to be represented and disagreed with on it’s merit or lack thereof…not the idea of it’s meritAugust 25, 2017 at 1:44 pm #31604
Jon Heyman ranks the top 60 free agents this winter. Hosmer is #3. Moustakas is #4. Lynn is #9.August 25, 2017 at 2:28 pm #31609
Brian-Seems to me I read KC is going to give Hosmer a Qualifying offer and they will do almost anything reasonable to keep him in KC.As for Moustakas I read KC is leading towards offering a QO to him also and want to keep both guys around.It probably comes down to how much both guys like KC and if some team offers really big money for either guy.August 25, 2017 at 4:36 pm #31616
Interesting early list
Jaime at 17. Good for him.
Any thoughts on Santana? Not as an only thing we could use fix but let’s say along with another move for an impact bat for the outfield? Carlos has on base skills and a little popAugust 25, 2017 at 5:57 pm #31620
I think the only advantage he would have over MCarp is that Santana is a switch-hitter.Isn’t Santana pretty much restricted to 1B only or DH?August 25, 2017 at 7:53 pm #31629
Whether Santana or Hosmer, what would you do with Carpenter if you signed one of them?August 25, 2017 at 8:10 pm #31630
Trade him for a true shortstop and put Dejong at 3B.August 25, 2017 at 8:12 pm #31631
Hosmer is a Boras client.August 26, 2017 at 9:20 am #31682
Not thinking about fit at the moment. Just options
But whether we like it or not Carp can play 2b and 3b as well. And probably at least corner OF at averag. If it came to it I could see a platoon with Gyorko at 3b for Carp should we acquire a 1bman
As for Santana. He could be emergency catcher at least. But he did play outfield last year in the playoffs I believeAugust 26, 2017 at 10:10 am #31687
If you acquire Hosmer, you have to trade Carp. He just wouldn’t fit anywhere. It’s painful to think of any options beyond trading him. You know Matheny would keep plugging Carp in at 2B and 3B, setting the stage for more defensive chaos. Mo has to eliminate the team’s warts, not move them around.August 26, 2017 at 3:06 pm #31696
These are all interesting and compelling acquisition ideas but if you will refer to recent Cardinal history; namely, the trading deadline of 2017 the front office discovered their new strategy…do nothing. Look for more of that in the off-season. Understand…Hosmer is not coming here, Moustakas is not coming here…no middle of the line-up guy is coming here. They are not going to trade for a”genuine” shortstop and move DeJong to third. When was the last time they made a “splash?” Holliday in 2009. Gyorko is under a good contract for 2 years I think, he plays third, DeJong plays short (he’s earned it), The Wonderkid is at second, Carpenter is at first. Pham has earned left and Fowler gets center by default. Grichuck, Piscotty or maybe Bader or Sierra as a long shot in right. Yadi catches of course. The line-up is virtually set already. Rotation: “Martinez, Leake, Wainwright and Wacha and either Weaver or Reyes. Rotation set. Bullpen: The great Cecil, Lyons, Bowman, Brebbria, Sammy T. Reyes or Weaver and some other guy from Memphis. It is possible that they do not acquire one single outside player. They may get a slug or two but no one worth having…Cecil’s brother maybe or his sister.August 26, 2017 at 8:59 pm #31718
Again with the misinformation that the Cards don’t do anything in trades or signings or spend money or whatever. It’s been shown to nkt be true so many times you’d think the argument would die. But unless you trade for Trout or sign Kershaw it doesn’t count as every other player is a slug
Instead of trying to end discussions why not participate by throwing out your solutions or ideas?August 26, 2017 at 9:07 pm #31720
It is true the Cards have added no one to the big league roster from outside the organization this year.August 30, 2017 at 9:27 am #31938
I found this quote today.
according to Bob Nightengale of USA Today.
While the St. Louis Cardinals, Texas Rangers and Philadelphia Phillies have also inquired into Stanton’s availability, the Giants have expressed the “strongest interest” in acquiring the 27-year-old, Nightengale reported.
August 30, 2017 at 10:42 am #31953
- This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by 14NyquisT.
I am leaning towards free agency.Jay Bruce OF or Todd Frazier 3B/1B would be my choices.Cards would have to deal a OF or two to make room for Bruce who is 31 and would offed a LH bat with power and okay defense in RF.If Todd Frazier was signed you would have a RH bat with power who has a good OBP for that particular crowd.He might be a little cheaper because he is having a bit of a down year. He is 32 so maybe a 3 year deal.Going free agent route only cost money and the OF surplus can be used in trades to get bullpen help.I would love to see Moustakas 3B in StLouis but I think he will get more money than Cards will pay.Gyorko can be utility guy or be used in trade to upgrade bullpen if Frazier is signed.If Cards really wanted to they could sign both Bruce and Frazier.Lynn and Duke and Oh are coming off payroll and making some smart trades can cut some underachieving players and money from the roster.I would even consider trading Carpenter and Pham and Diaz and Gyorko if gettong younger cheaper players in return.Carpenter would be a fine addition to a team that needs a good OBP guy with some pop.Carp would be a good DH in the AL.He would look good in Yankee pinstripes or BoSox with both their funky RF and gaps in alleys.Gyorko would fit most anywhere as a utility guy with some power and a reasonable salary and is still young.Grichuk has power potential that should be interesting to a team lacking power and Pham has had a good season and someone might feel he can be a possible 2 season starter who is cheap.As others have said this team doesn’t have a bunch of untouchables.
I would keep these guys as a foundation for the future.I think there are other guys to keep but just a step below top guys
Guys team is stuck with
Derek FowlerAugust 30, 2017 at 11:50 am #31968
With Leake leaving (as well as one would have to assume at least a majority of his salary)
I think we are going to re-sign Lynn… possibly even first thing in the offseason in our little window where only we can talk to him
And to me it is a good move…when Waino steps away after next year Lynn will slide into the veteran role for teaching… him and CMart are a good 1-2…in 2019 you add Wacha, Reyes, Weaver, Flaherty…3 get spots
Cmart, Lynn ,Wacha, Weaver, Flaherty (Reyes taking the closer role in 2018 and keeping it going forward…or at least until we know what to do with Wacha)
I think there was a good chance we were going to re-sign Lynn anyways…but now, it just makes a lot of sense in so many ways
add to this a move for Stanton or a signing of Hosmer…JD as an outside possibility along with MOose…as well as maybe a trade for Donaldson… while also snagging a backend veteran like Neshek or Shaw
regardless…adding a big bat is going to happen…who it is and how it happens is the question unanswered…
however if it is a FA signing ….other trades will need to happen regardless just to clear up space…the LEake trade clears up pitching depth issues if we sign Lynn… but the outfield jam is still a problem…and a trade will still almost definitely have to happen
i’d love for us to spend big and make a big show that we wont be passed over….
Sign Wade Davis, Lynn, Hosmer….trade for Stanton
it will be expensive in prospects, and big time monies
sign Lynn, Neshek, trade for Donaldson
somewhere in between?
a middle order bat isnt going to be cheap and is obviously a flaw in the team…the ownership will not get away with another year of not solving that issue…last offseason they used the excuse of Carpenter turning into that guy…ti didnt work…and no one else has stepped up…they have to do something about it…there really arent any valid excuses for solving that problem in house anymore…
I iwsh it werent the case, i wish Carp and Piscotty woudl have blossomed into what we need…but they just havent…and we need outside help to right the ship…
it’s not as if the Cardinals havent done this plenty of times before…
still…shoudl be interesting…Leake trade really stunned me…perhaps we arent even done for THIS season even?
blah blah blah…August 30, 2017 at 7:36 pm #32043
But what if they don’t get a big bat?
What if the don’t sign any big free agents?
What if they don’t sign Lynn?
What if they do absolutely nothing?
Trading Leake may have only been to make room for Flaherty and nothing more.
Maybe they’ll do something meaningful but I wouldn’t place all your hopes for next season the St. Louis Cardinals…The Cardinals now, making any big acquisitions.August 31, 2017 at 8:22 am #32070
If they don’t, then they don’t…and i listen to the explanations. And i get excited about the next season, and what would probably be considered a rebuild year. And i root for them all the way. I root for the players, the managers, and the management. The team has a plan, and their plans have produced winning teams consistently, even if we take 3 years off (assuming we wouldnt make it in a rebuild year), that plan that has been in place has worked. Franchise management is no different than the game itself. If you get to bottled up into the results of one pitch, or 1 out, or 1 run, or 1 inning , or 1 start, or 1 player, or 1 contract, or 1 win or loss, or 1 first half, or 1 season, then you arent really watching baseball. Baseball is about it’s long game. We love 1 4 HR games, but baseball values the overall stats more.
This year and last year the team was close, injuries last year, and underperforming this year kept this team from hitting it’s stride, but even in that the team is/was close to still succeeding.
Perhaps if they do nothing in the offseason, then they are committing to their young assets (which arent bad), and giving them a year before the crazy 2018 FA offseason where very high level quality players will be abundant, and should our youngsters not pan out, there will be ample options for investing.
I am not placing “all my hopes for next season” on them doing something. I am a fan of the CARDINALS, not the way i THINK the Cardinals team should be or assembled. If they run out there with:
CMart, Waino, Wacha, Weaver, Flaherty
Reyes, Lyons, Kevin, Cecil, Bowman, Tuivalala, Brebbia (Rosy returns late)
Carp, Pham, DeJong, Fowler, Gyorko, Yadi, Wong, Piscotty
Kelly, Grichuk, JMart, Garcia, Voit
I don’t see why it couldnt succeed.
Sure, if i had it my way, i’d do things different, but I dont see why i wouldn’t root for that team to win. the lineup is similar to this year, and this year it underperformed, the rotation is heavy with youngsters, but they are good top end youngsters and one could argue Weaver>Leake, the bullpen is thin but we add Reyes add the back end with his stuff and it coudl be impressive, the bench is the same but a year older, and our bench is good this year.
All that savings could be good going into the following offseason. Where perhaps we see parts of the lineup or pen or whatever that could be spent on.
The thing is…that won’t happen… the ownership has repeatedly said they know they have work to do this offseason. They said that last offseason too, and whether you like the moves or not they made moves and spent money. Cecil loks overpaid now, but the move made sense, Fowler looked a bit much to me and i wasnt a big fan but the spent on the need and he has played pretty well, but he wasnt being brought in to play cleanup or be a middle order scary hitter. They paid CMart and Yadi and PIscotty. And again whether you like the moves in hindsight or not, they made them
SO…the team WILL make moves this offseason. Will they be for big FA’s or big trades? I don’t know, but it will make moves.
AND…even if they don’t i can get excited about the team anyways. And if they make moves i dont agree with, i will still get excited about he team. I trust the long range planning of the admins because they have proven long term to know how to make things work. Even a 2-3 year lack of postseason wont change that fact. I am fan of the CARDINALS. I complain as much as anyone, well maybe not, but i complain a lot too…but it doesnt change my hope or respect for the CARDINALS. I dont always agree or get along with my siblings, but that doesnt mean i dont support their decisions once they are made.
I will definitely be interested in the reasoning should ownership do nothing. I probably wont like it, but i will still tune in every game ST and regular season. If anyone else wants to show their support for the favorite team, the team they say they are a “Fan” of by not showing up or tuning in, or going on boards and spouting and anger and disillusion….well that is on them…I don’t quite understand it, but it isnt my place to understand it because i dont want the team to lose just to make me feel better about my decisions about what decisions woudl work better. Being a “fan” TO ME is about supporting the team and organization through good and bad decisions, long term, beyond players and managers, and GMs and owners even.
Once this season is over whether in early Oct. or November all i will be doing is looking forward to the next season so i can enjoy Cardinals baseball. Not Cardinals baseball from the 80’s or Cardinals baseball from the 2000’s, but Cardinals baseball as i watch it. ANd just like watching any one game, pitch or AB, some of them are good….some of them are bad, but i woudlnt be watching baseball if i didnt see and enjoy all of it.
Go Cardinals!August 31, 2017 at 2:39 pm #32096
Jager: Relax and take a breath from your oxygen mask or breath into a paper bag.
“I don’t see why it couldn’t succeed.”
I can see many reasons, the biggest one being the lack of talent.
That group will NOT succeed. If they make some significant upgrades then we’ll see.August 31, 2017 at 3:26 pm #32106
well i disagree with you….
as i said in that quote “I” don’t see why it couldnt succeed… I don’t see anything until it happens… i dont give up on seasons and decisions
you have no idea how well Flaherty and Weaver will perform next year… you have no idea how anyone will perform next season… so i don’t see how you can “see” anything… you can pessimistically THINK it might happen…you may even WANT it to happen… but you don’t know anything… and neither do i… until i see it happen
you want to be pessimistic…go ahead… but i am not going to do so… you want to see failure, go for it… i look and see promise and potential…
also i typed all that very calmly and was happy to do so…that you THINK i am “riled up” by your pessimism and snide and nasty comments only makes me feel better…. I LOVE typing out why i am optimistic and happy…i love it so much…it makes me VERY happy to have a reason to type it out…it made my morning that i got to start off the day filled with a reaffirmation about why i like baseball and the Cardinals… your constant antagonism does nothing but make me feel better about my positions and thoughts…
also…that team WONT be the team if you really read what i wrote…the Cardinals always make moves, and have shown no indications that they wont make moves again this year…you may not like them…heck i might not like them…but they will make moves…show me when they have made ZERO moves? and done NOTHING in an offseason?
I see big upside possibilities from Flaherty and Weaver… Reyes is a big arm for the pen at least, Alcantara now seems to be a part of the pen too…looks to be an upgrade to me too..even a late season ROsy might be awesome
id love a vet reliever to help teach the kids…but that isnt absolutely necessary
Lynn seems a good signing…but we may go with another starter shoudl we need to… i just dont see us adding Hudson or Gant or Alcantara to the rotation full time…if we don’t get a big time starter like Lynn…we’ll bring in someone to help…and bide our time until Hudson or Alcantara or Reyes are ready for the rotation
lineup has plenty of upside even as it is…just with some guys returning to norms…they all might do it….maybe only one or two…maybe none…but we have depth…sure we might see some regression too…but we have good talent…
yeah we still need a big bat IMO…RF maybe 3rd or 1b…trades seem more and more likely…but we could go FA too..and even if not for the big bat we should see movement
bench is good and will be again next year
if had to guess for worse case scenario for offseason moves…and it’s just a guess, not even what I WANT or even THINK will happen…just a guess as of today for pessimism…
FA signing of low tier starter on 1yr deal…Feldman/ Tillman like
FA signing of vet for pen…mid tier..low years…Neshek like
FA signing of mid tier hitter, couple year deal…BRuce…Alonso…
FA signing of backup catcher
trade involving at least 1 outfielder prospect or MLB player for similar minor/major league league level at another position with power
trade involving at least 1 MI prospect or 25man player for minor league prospect at another position corner infield (for one of the two trades)
wont make a lot of people happy, but woudl work if the plan is to wait until the following offseason
trade for impact MLB level player utilizing MLB and minor league players, probably OFs involved heavily
FA signing of backup catcher 1 yr
FA signing of veteran reliever for short years
(Lynn, Stanton, Conger/Rivera/Hundley, NEshek/SHaw)
pie in sky:
(this undoubtedly would mean moving big prospects and MLB players and money, everyone but Reyes is on the table…Flaherty and Weaver included means probably additional FA signing of another low end starter like Feldman)
Stanton deal something like… Piscotty, Hudson, Bader, Kelly (they move Realmuto to 1b)
Carp (3b), Pham, Hosmer, Stanton, Dejong, Fowler, Yadi, Wong…that’s fun
Carp and Gyorko both serve as super utility guys…Wong can lead off on days Carp isnt in there
Carp and Gyorko split time at 3b getting more time by playing 2b and 1b from time to time
Carp at 3b isnt the greatest at 3b on defense but he wouldnt be there alone…
just thinking out loud…none of it WILL happen…but i like thinking about it…from the pessimistic moves to the crazy ones
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