Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors – 2017-2018

Home The Cardinal Nation Forums Open Forum Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors – 2017-2018

Viewing 25 posts - 376 through 400 (of 2,872 total)
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  • #35592
    PadsFS
    Participant

    Motte would count right?

    #35596
    NJ315
    Participant

    Pham vision issues and age for those to reasons I would trade him after his breakout season. On a smaller and petty note I don’t like Pham. He never “grew” on me. His chip on his shoulder attitude grated on me. His comments after games were mostly angry and self-serving. This is my opinion and perception of him that doesn’t make it true or factual. You don’t have to like all the players on your team and that doesn’t make you less of a fan.

    #35601
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Interesting question I’ve wondered about. Pham’s intensity is clearly part of his personal motivation, but is it good or bad for the team overall? We’ve seen him visibly angry at teammates for mistakes made. It is ok because he is playing well himself or could it be perceived as showing up others? What do folks think?

    #35602
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    i think the Craig and Piscotty deals without the aid of hindsight seemed appropriate
    we sold high on Craig and moved that contract and got back useful parts that worked out for us in the logn run so i don’t see the mistake at all

    Piscotty indeed seem too soon to evaluate

    Wong’s contract last year was lambasted and after his down year last year who woudlnt hate on it…but he has a good year this year and now it is a great cost effective signing..

    The Piscotty deal gets at least one more year to decide on it’s value IMO…family issues combined with a sophomore slump is alot to deal with…he gets a free pass this year…but if he is around next year and doesn’t figure it out…definitely a bd move on the contract

    i think the real mistakes re the FA signings
    Cecil signing looks poor…but made sense as a signing, but 4 years always sat wrong with me…he has been pretty dependable up until this year but 4 yrs is a long time
    Fowler signing is being panned…and i agree as i thought we had plenty of OF depth and Grichuk’s defense in CF wasnt really that bad last year… an upgrade to the offense made sense, but in CF i just wasn’t seeing it…corner OF or 3b/1b made more sense…

    i hope we make a deal with ROsy this offseason to try to sneak an extra year of control on him while he recovers…a nice and tidy 2yr deal for 2018-19 with a team option at a healthy increase woudl be fine with me… the ROsy we saw this year was worth the investment…and he has always had elite closer stuff, even if he turns into a setup man…he’s worth paying for a lost year to get a shot at a cheaper year in 2019 and maybe 2020…

    #35605
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    Jag, what would you offer Rosy? I dont see any way to fashion a deal that is worth keeping him on the 40 man roster. i can only see a minor league deal with incentives. That probably keeps him around next year as an arb guy as well since he probably wont get enough service time to become a FA that way.

    #35610
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I don’t think Scott Boras is going to like those terms for Rosenthal. My prediction is he will take lesser salary if necessary in 2018 to cash in big next fall. Getting back on the mound late next season will be very important for that plan to work.

    For the Cardinals (or any team if he hits the open market), the key question is how soon he could return next season. If the price is right, many clubs would take the chance on him returning late in the season to boost their bullpen heading into the playoffs. Look at what a boost Nicasio was for the final month.

    As an example, many fans here and elsewhere wanted to see Duke cut loose at this time last winter because they felt the 40-man spot was more valuable. They also questioned whether Duke could return and be effective. He did and he was. The Cards got 27 appearances from him with a 3.97 ERA. And on his side of the equation, his health is no longer a question as he becomes a free agent.

    Just in terms of dates, Duke had his surgery in early to mid October and he pitched for the first time with StL in Game #96 on July 21. Rosenthal’s TJS was in late August, more than a month earlier than Duke. Of course, no one knows how fast Rosenthal will heal and how effective he will be.

    Insurance was also apparently a factor with Duke. I have no idea if this is a consideration for Rosenthal. In the latter case, the Cards could simply non-tender him and walk away with no financial liability.

    What will win out – the chance of getting him back in 2H or saving the cash and roster spot for someone else?

    #35617
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    i dont know the going rate for ROsy…i agree that a minor league deal isnt going to happen…i think he could be an impact guy for us in the final push next year as i think he will come back strong and wanting to impress

    i say offer 2 yrs 10mil (he is making 6.4mil this year) with an 8mil team option for a 3rd year…perhaps a buyout for the 2019 of like 3.5mil…in case we want to cut bait….

    that roughly pays him what he is making now but for the amount of time he would actually play for us over a 2year span….the buyout still guarantees him a healthy chunk even if he cant pitch anymore and the 3rd yr team option is high enough that he would be getting paid decently should he do well…and even if he stays after the 3 yrs he woudl still only be 31 and we would only have used up 2 yrs of his FA years

    i saw a lot of really good stuff from him this year when he was given the closer role… the type of stuff we are going to be looking for in the next couple years…NIcasio is band aid even if re-signed and whiel i like Reyes, and Alcantara and hudson as power relievers, i think probably at least one will be gone this offseason in a trade and Reyes seems destined long term for the rotation as does Alcantara…at least that is hat the team is saying…even if that means a couple years for them in the pen before they hit the rotation… Rossy would be able to provide veteran closing experience for a few years while we groom someone else, OR decide Rosy is worth re-investing in….in my scenario over three years he’d be getting around 6mil on average at most..and if the team option isnt gone after we’d get 1.5ish years of him for roughly 5mil per year…and if he was REALLY done coming back from surgery…we’d overpay for .5 years at 8.5mil…. it’s a gamble but if we believe he will be healthy after the surgery and it seems more and more likely that is sure thing post TJ surgery rather than a hope…we are looking at worse at a veteran Cardinals system backend bullpen guy with the stuff to be an all star closer

    it’s gamble…but it has such high rewards id be in on it….even if the numbers i have are all wrong

    #35641
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    I said I dont see Rosy with a roster spot. I do see him with a minor league contract. There is no way I guarantee him anywhere close to $10 million. No where close at all.

    I think he will be lucky to get a $ 500k guarantee on a minor league contract. Maybe another $500k bonus if promoted to the major leagues. Another $50k for each major league appearance and $100k for every major league game finished. That is based on an expectation of Rosy being able to pitch at about the all-star break. If he pitches and is ineffective he might make $2 million and I can release him if I dont want to go to arbitration for 2019. If he comes back strong he might make close to $5 million for half a season and go to arbitration in 2019.

    #35644
    nbr1hawkeye
    Participant

    Free

    ..

    .I for one would not Trade Pham for Ozuna straight up given their salaries and years of control.

    CC

    I agree with you 100%.

    #35664
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think Jag has it about right on Rosey. I would offer him a 2 year $9M deal. Pay him $2M in 2018 and $7M in 2019. If we bring Nicasio back, add another piece, and have Rosey by September that could be a nice bullpen going down the stretch.

    #35666
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    But why guarantee him $9 million when you dont know if he will come back and be effective. Still lots of pitchers that dont. You want to give Rosy a deal that has no downside for him and no.upside for the team. Why? You think some other team is going to give him a major league roster spot?

    #35677
    NJ315
    Participant

    If the Miami Marlins GM trades Ozuna straight up for Pham he should be fired. If the Cards GM rejects that deal he should be fired. Ozuna is 2 year younger than Pham. Pham is huge risk because of his vision.

    #35681
    mudville
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Rosenthal was one of the best closers in either league when he was healthy. I’d definitely try to sign him for two years. If he is able to pitch like he used to, $9M would be okay. Yes, it’s a gamble. But GM’s gamble all the time on players. It would also give Alcantara two more years of to get ready.

    #35689
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    It doesnt really matter that Pham is two years older. He will only be completing his age 31 season when Ozuna’s contract is up. And still have two years of control. Pham has just as good a chance of improving his numbers (which are already better than Ozuna’s) as Ozuna does his. How many major league ab’s did it take Ozuna to put up a 4+ war? Pham obviously has resolved his eye issues. What makes you think that will revert back in the next two years?

    #35690
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    Rosy would only get about $10 million for one year if he was healthy and you want to give him $9 million for the possibility of one healthy year? Even when healthy he wasn’t always worth that much. It is not like he was amazingly consistent. No thanks. That doesn’t even include the wasted roster spot this off season.

    #35691
    NJ315
    Participant

    He has not resolved his vision problems. His condition is for life and they will be ongoing adjustments. There were adjustments during this season. It matters that Ozuna is younger in baseball even 2 years can be important especially before 30. I am sorry Pham had a very good year but what makes you think he will again? and like I said he is huge risk. Miami wouldn’t trade Ozuna for Pham so is moot issue. I would sell high on Pham after his very good season but maybe other teams will shy away from his vision problems.

    #35695
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    What makes you think he wont? Just because he had one episode where he put his contact in wrong? You do realize that Pham’s fwar per plate appearance PRIOR TO THIS YEAR was about the same as Ozuna’s career year? So even with vision problems Pham could be as good as Ozuna and cheaper. Ozuna is coming off a career year as well. He had nearly 2000 plate appearances of good and now 680 plate appearances of really good. Which one is more likely to return to his norm? Which norm would you prefer?

    #35696
    NJ315
    Participant

    He said he still has trouble at times on day games. The norm is Pham has dealt with vision problems throughout his career and his condition is for the rest of his life. You can take the risk and because he doesn’t make a lot of money that would ok for you. I look at it that if he has problems we are out productive OF. I rather pass the on the risk.

    #35699
    mudville
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Pham brings more than impressive metrics and financial control. He brings intangibles. He brings competitiveness on a daily basis. He brings commitment on a daily basis. He brings passion to his game, and to the game. Pham should be untouchable as far as I’m concerned. No one knows what those things are worth because you can’t buy them. They come from the heart and mind of the player, not from the gifts that he might possess.

    You could almost say the same for Jose Martinez, although with him its tough to watch the ball bounce off his glove when that happens. I still wouldn’t trade him, though, and I wouldn’t sit him down. He plays hard. He has fun. And most of his metrics are good.

    #35701
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Motte got hurt in 2014 and was not good when he did play in 2014 (6+ERA) while making 7.5mil from us…

    Cubs signed him the next year for 4.5 mil after the bad year AND the injury+had a decent year in Chicago
    then signed for 2yrs 5mil per with the Rox and was bad

    then got the league minimum with the Braves while still getting paid by the Rox right?

    a high leverage closer level guy with a pedigree of closing in big games and a big fastball gets paid…even after injuries…didnt Davis get a nice contract from the cubs this year sight unseen after a big injury? and he did just fine

    it took 3 years of contracts AFTER getting hurt for him not to make about 5mil per year and was older than Rosy

    i’d say what Rosy showed this year is way better than what MOtte showed in 2014…and we dont have a guy like Rosy waiting behind Rosy like Motte did

    to me a 2yr deal at 10mil makes sense …the team option for us for a 3rd year makes it a bit sweeter in case he is really good and the buyout in 2019 for a reasonable amount would save us from eating the whole 10mil if he goes bad…

    it is a gamble…but rosy has shown plenty of ability and the TJ surgery is pretty much a year off at this point…when was the last guy who didnt come back and perform? plus Rosy has ALL the motivation to do so as he wants to get paid…or deal gives him the ability to focus on rehab without worrying about money whiel still keeping him motivated to come back and be good as his age he woudl still enter FA at 31 even after 3 total years

    IMO he definitely gets a contract from someone…he is too young and coudl still even switch back to starting, has a big fastball, is still pretty cheap and has a pedigree of success, even if it comes with some bumps

    CC…i get your thought process i just disagree… that’s not a big deal…we will see what happens with him

    #35702
    NJ315
    Participant

    Whatever keep Pham and his intangibles. You are right I am wrong.

    #35703
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

    Free

    Any reason we couldn’t trade for both Stanton and Donaldson both?

    #35705
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    Budget? Dont want to decimate the farm system?

    #35706
    Bw52
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    The Phamfoolery grows by leaps and bounds.Yes he had a very good year but can he repeat?IMO he will not because he still deals with eye issues and the league will figure him out.I think he gets a big dose of reality this coming season.I think
    He was a 3/4 season flash.I think he reverts back to a 10-15 Home run guy with 60 RBIs .270 BA 15 stolen bases.
    2017 was a aberration and not the norm for Pham.Nothing he has previously done makes me think otherwise.

    #35711
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Jager, your Motte and Rosenthal comparison is interesting to me. One thing not explained, however, is why Boras would agree to give up one or two of Rosenthal’s free agent years (with the option). Much of the discussion here seems to be about what the Cardinals multi-year offer should be – as if that would be Rosenthal’s only choice. (It is situation #4 below.)

    Here are the choices as I see them.

    1) The Cards non-tender Rosenthal and he becomes a free agent and does not return.
    2) The Cards non-tender Rosenthal and he becomes a free agent. He then agrees to a one-year minor league deal with StL with clauses to pay him additional $ if he makes it back during 2018.
    3) The Cards tender him on a one-year MLB deal. The $ amount would be set through the arbitration process or they would agree ahead of time on an amount. He takes up a 40-man spot this off-season and is moved to the 60-day DL if needed in the spring.
    4) Rosenthal and the Cards agree to a multi-year MLB deal that covers 2018 plus at least one of his free agent years. He takes up a 40-man spot this off-season and is moved to the 60-day DL if needed in the spring.

    Personally, I think #4 is the least likely scenario (team would not do, or at least not offer enough to get Boras to agree) and #2 is also unlikely (player would not do). I think if he reaches the open market, he will leave (#1), rather than accept a minor league deal.

    With him a free agent, I expect one of the other 29 teams would offer an MLB contract, which is key for Rosenthal to accumulate the final year of service time he needs to reach free agency next fall. That would not occur on a minor league deal. All it takes is one team willing take the financial and roster risk in return for the promise of him pitching for them in the second half.

    Rosenthal should be motivated to return as soon as is reasonable next season to prove he is worthy of a big contract next fall. (Similar to what Duke accomplished this year.)

    If the Cards want to keep Rosenthal for 2018, I see #3 as the only sure way. Otherwise, I would expect him to walk.

Viewing 25 posts - 376 through 400 (of 2,872 total)
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