Molina Extension

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This topic contains 61 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  thejager 2 months ago.

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  • #32766

    PadsFS
    Participant

    I didn’t like it at the time, but his resurgence this season has been pretty great to see. I don’t think WAR accurately rates his value.

    #32786
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    I was happy that we kept Molina, as he deserved a shot at finishing his career as a Cardinal. Maybe he will play on after this deal ends, but I liked the deal from a legacy standpoint, and like Mo said at the signing, I felt he still had enough left to bring some decent value on the field.

    I would have preferred us keeping Kelly at AAA all year, and starting his career next year as Yadi’s backup, with the two splitting time in ’19. But that’s not a huge deal. Most of one more year under Yadi is certainly good schooling.

    #32967

    14NyquisT
    Participant

    mud…. that’s exactly why I can’t put Kelly in the top three. He isn’t and won’t be playing enough to make much of a contribution. He would probably be starting for some MLB teams in ’18…. but not in St. Louis. I think that the F.O. made a decision to spend money on Molina and have him play the next three seasons. That’s enough time for Kelly to lead in league in splinters. Another FO screw up.

    ps. don’t get me wrong, I’ve always been a Kelly fan (I watched a short clip of him driving to his first spring training) but how much more can he learn from Matheny? He may be the real deal but how will anyone know? He could be ripping it up but only Molina will decide when CK gets any playing time. Something just ain’t right here. Sorry Carson…. no soup for you.

    #32987

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    If the Cards trade Kelly for a good take and Molina remains productive, how could that be a front office screw up? It may not happen, but my continued point is that it is far too early to make any pronouncements about Molina’s extension. After all, it hasn’t even started yet!

    #33031

    14NyquisT
    Participant

    I know the extension hasn’t started yet, but for Kelly’s future with the organization, it has already had its’ consequences.

    I guess I need to clarify my opinion on this issue since I’m getting some chin music from a few the other contributors to this site. This is what I’m seeing. We have a highly touted C prospect for the first time this century. (the organization didn’t feel it was necessary to seek one out partially due to Molina’s presence). Kelly was converted to a C and his ETA was pegged to Molina’s departure (contract) or age-related regression. Kelly actually lost time on learning the position.

    Fast forward to the time when Molina’s contract was due to expire. Kelly was now regarded as the #1 catching prospect in the nation and Molina was starting to show some wear. For some MLB teams it would have been a no-brainer to go with the future. However, the situation in St. Louis was something that had the people in the main office walking on egg shells. To be considered was the organization’s regard for their fans, the local media outlets (TV, newspapers, talk shows etc.). They all have something to sell. Molina was the face of this team. Accolades were passed out freely.

    The Cards were faced with a problem rarely seen in MLB these days. Give in to Molina’s demands for three years or let him make his own deal elsewhere. At that time I thought that Molina’s ego was big enough for him to choose elsewhere. I saw how he loved playing for team Puerto Rico and in the all-star game. I thought that that would be his final choice.

    For the reasons given above, somehow the FO felt it had to roll the dice with Molina. That seemed to be the safest way out…. avoiding backlash from the people that had a financial stake in seeing Molina stay a Cardinal. I was surprised how that played out. Molina got his contract and Kelly… well, “we’ll see”, we were told. He could become a good starting option should the need arise.

    Now, if they kept Kelly instead, and he didn’t pan out, well, I can’t even think clearly about how that would go over. The FO could not possibly have foreseen the giant step Knizner would take to present them with a bonafide C option and maybe… just maybe… that would have held some sway. Knizner is on his way to becoming a top-10 Card prospect and fits in better with what their plan has become.

    It appears to me that Molina can call his own shots, play when he wants and criticize management, and actually get support from the fan base and colleagues. I don’t live in the StL area, but I check out the PD regularly. I may be wrong about some or all of this thinking, but I have lost respect for Yadi so much so that I feel that he has, and will continue to stunt the growth of the farm system at the catching position, and that’s something I feel strongly disagree with happening.

    It’s the team’s money and positively they hope that they have spent it wisely… I have serious doubts about that. My turn >>>>>>> we’ll see.

    #33050

    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Nyquis, I understand what you are saying about the fans, the media, etc., but what was gained by doing this a year early? Nothing that I can see.

    I also think if for some reason Molina had ended up walking, the fans would have accepted it. The FO gained a lot of credibility in situations like this for what appears to be an excellent decision regarding Pujols. Not sure why they didn’t cash that in.

    #33052

    PadsFS
    Participant

    Well, Pujols landed us two 1st rounders ~ Wacha and Piscotty. Plus the $20+M in saved salaries….

    #33130

    14NyquisT
    Participant

    The Cards gave Molina more $$ than he would have gotten anywhere else, a lot more. If he had walked that would have been his decision and would have been accepted by most. That’s why the FO is to blame for this situation that has an effect on several other careers. Important careers.

    #33137

    Cards1776
    Participant

    14NyquisT, what do you foresee “in the cards” during the next year for the other promising prospects in the farm system if Molina stays put?

    #33638

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Per Cardinals media relations:

    Yadier Molina moved past Jim Bottomley into the Top 10 in Cardinals history in hits with his 1,728th last night.

    #33642
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    I don’t understand the Molina hate by some fans. Its not Molina is not preforming because he is.

    #33644

    Brianpnoonan
    Participant

    I dont see it as hate. All athletes struggle with this when they start going downhill.

    The fans want the best player playing. Period.

    We just happen to have a good long term replacement.

    #33647

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Disappointment over public comments made and/or unhappiness over a contract extension granted can be made without expressing hate of anyone.

    #33648
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    That’s what I find hilarious though. We have a guy who is still playing high caliber baseball at a premium position and certain fans are wanting to run him out of town for an unproven Carson Kelly. Then these same fans will whine and moan about a player not being loyal to the fans, city, team, etc.

    #33650

    thejager
    Participant

    the thing is…people are trying to find reasons to show Yadi is declining to further the agenda that:

    -the front office is dumb for giving him an extension
    -the extension itself is terrible
    -Yadi should be dumped because he is old
    -Kelly should be playing more at the expense of Yadi’s time

    I just dont see enough evidence (or even a little) to prove he is declining in any way, and if it is it is marginal and still puts his worth higher than any other available option internally or externally…

    #33660

    Bw52
    Participant

    1.The front office WAS dumb for giving him that much money.
    2.Nobody said he should be dumped.IMO reducing his workload would do two things;keep him fresher and give experience to Kelly.
    3.Kelly should be getting some playing time because of stated reasons above.
    4.Molina is still good but he is NOT the Molina of a few years ago defensively.Other teams announcers ( former MLB players say ;Molina still a good catcher but not the great catcher he once was).Nobody says he stinks but you still can`t be the clock.

    #33661

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    In all fairness, Molina brought on some of the negative attention through his own social media actions questioning his manager. Some people were also bothered by that. Given he is 35 years old, it would seem to be more perspective-based than immaturity-driven.

    #33665
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    I personally didn’t have a problem with him saying he didn’t want days off. A lot of people made it a bigger issue than it was.

    #33686

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Molina is just second among MLB catchers in at-bats this season. J.T. Realmuto of Miami leads him, 502 to 492.

    Molina leads all MLB catchers in RBI with 82, sort of. Gary Sanchez of the Yankees has 88, but 10 of them came when he was PH/DH/1B. He has about 50 fewer at-bats than Molina overall.

    #33798

    thejager
    Participant

    why is giving a good contract to a good player who is producing a bad thing?

    yes people were saying he should be let go instead of re-signing him…go back and look

    there is no evidence that less playing time would result in better stats for Molina nor better play from the team…you cant beat father time…but you can put him off… Yadi wouldn’t be the first guy who can play at a high level into his late 30’s

    Kelly has shown nothign but minor league stats to show such extreme confidence that he can produce at the MLB level…definitely nothign at the level of moving off a top 5 catcher of his routine

    yes Molina is still good…his “good” is still WAY better than most catchers out there…and definitely better than any other options out there including Kelly

    #33800

    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Molina is not going to be $60 milliin good over the next 3 years. Is Molina still good. Yes. $20 million a year good? No.

    It is not a problem with signing a good player. It is about giving a good player a top tier contract.

    #33857

    thejager
    Participant

    Until he shows he isn’t worth the salary he deserves it IMO

    You pay what it takes to keep someone sometimes. Paying more than WAR projections doesn’t mean it isn’t worth every cent

    Most is onfield play. But also the value of him not playing against you has worth. Value of veteran status. Clubhouse. Mentoring. Fan base love also has worth.

    Quantifying worth is far from precise. And performance evaluating whether someone has earned that worth is even farther from exacting.

    #33858

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Not related to contract, but Molina’s wife initiated collecting money for hurricane relief in Puerto Rico. Other players from their homeland also started fund-raising initiatives.

    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/20788969/carlos-beltran-yadier-molina-enrique-hernandez-leading-efforts-raise-funds-puerto-rico-hurricane-maria

    #33862

    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Jag, if you are going to go to the default that they desrve it until they prove don’t, you better being going year to year.

    Leadership? Where has that been on a team most people think has lacked leadership? A frontal assault on the manager in the media about playing time? Publicly showing a defiant, non team oriented attitude? Not hustling on botg offense and defense? Oh, that leadership!

    #33916

    thejager
    Participant

    Show me a year to year contract out there
    No player goes year to year outside the crazy exception like Lincecum early on or marginal Mlb talent. And Yadi is top 5 level at his position unless HE wanted to it wouldn’t happen so saying that is even an option is just unfair to even posit

    Again with the MOST people comment. I’ll just say it too and it will have the same worthless value as a discussion point. Most people think YAdi is great and one of the best ever and active catchers defensively ever. Most people think his value to making pitchers better and calling a game is unmatched in baseball. Most people think we are spoiled by seeing how good he is and have little understanding of what it means to have a poor catcher.

    The team determines the value not you or the media. I gave options for value not necessarily the ones they determined were to be used nor their criteria for meeting that value. They did that and determined he deserved what they gave him. And what happened? He performed brilliantly and has been healthy.

    And the team is right in the hunt. Even without 2 starters from the rotation and a totally different bullpen.

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 62 total)

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