Matheny as manager – fired 7/14

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  • #36085
    bccran
    Participant

    Again. My fault. I thought this was a “Matheny as Manager” thread. It’s not. It’s a bash Matheny and all pile on thread. Even using obscure writers to assist lobbying for his dismissal. No one wants to talk about the experienced guys who had bad years. And if they do
    do, they want blame MM for their bad playing. But of course there’s no mention of –

    1.) A 27 year old pitcher who was in the independent leagues 2 years ago. Had an ERA is 6.44 at Memphis last year. In 2017 he was brought up, pitched in 50 games for the Cardinals, and had an ERA of 2.44
    striking out 51 in 51 innings and giving up only 37 hits.

    2.) A 28 year old outfielder who had labored in the minors for over 10 years. He gets a chance and hits .309 with an OPS of .897 in over 300 plate appearances.

    3.) And how about a kid who was playing 3B for Illinois State in 2015. He had 11 games at SS at AA
    ball along with 17 games at SS in the AFL. He’s called up, plays well at the relatively unfamiliar (and critical) position and manages to smack 25 home runs in only
    433 plate appearances.

    But let’s not give MM credit for giving those guys a chance, and supporting them. Because again, this is an MM bashing thread where you pile on our “100%” inept manager.

    #36087
    CariocaCardinal
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    I give MM little blame for bad play (except when he puts players in positions that lead to their failure). Consequently, he gets little credit for their success. Particularly the play of a 28 y.o. that Matheny ignored the past few years and didnt even see fit to keep on the roster at the start of the year.

    Brebbia pitched well but MM continued using less successful pitchers in high leverage situations – does that deserve accolades?

    Dejong played well but basically Matheny had little choice but to play him. He never severly slumped and the other options were limited. But if it makes you feel good, I’ll give Matheny some credit for sticking with him.

    #36088
    bccran
    Participant

    He had a choice to play the 28 year old for the past “few years” and ignored him? Are we talking about the same player? Martinez came to the Cardinals organization about a third of the way through a 5 month minor league season in 2016, after being in the minors for 10 years. At Memphis in 2016 he hit .269 with a .742 OPS. Sheesh, even when the facts are there, posters will bend them to fit their agenda.

    #36090
    bccran
    Participant

    “Brebbia pitched well, but MM continued using less successful pitchers in high leverage situations”. Really? You want to put a minor leaguer who was called up at the end of May into high leverage situations? When he doesn’t have any major league experience in those situations?

    #36094
    bccran
    Participant

    Matheny had little choice but to play DeJong at SS? Would suggest a look at both the Cardinals and Memphis rosters when that move was made and notice the players who had a heckuva lot more professional games at SS than DeJong’s total of 11 at the AA level and 17 in the AFL. Moving DeJong to the most critical defensive position on the field at the major league level with his paltry time having played there was a huge risk, and took a lot of intestinal fortitude. But if you want to bash MM, you’ll find a way to skirt that and it won’t make a bit of difference to you anyway.

    #36095
    NJ315
    Participant

    Matheny is not a good manager. Discussing his strengths serves no purpose. It is not about bashing Matheny it is about pointing that his weaknesses far exceed his strengths. In 6 years he has shown very little inclination to learn or try a different approach to managing the in game decisions. He keeps making the same bad decisions and when the roster is good the warts are no so striking. With a mediocre roster those warts are glaring.

    #36097
    CariocaCardinal
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    And you’ll find a way to defend Matheny anyway possible even if it includes him throwing Oh out there (because he has more experience?) even when he is struggling. I guess that makes us even.

    Did I miss your discussion of Matheny’s weaknesses is all this bickering?

    #36102
    bccran
    Participant

    Those 2 responses are so weak and hold so little water to my last
    3 posts, that it’s actually funny.
    CC – you’re a great poster and a guy, but you should have let this subject drop before making some foolish statements to try to dis MM, no matter what I said.

    NJ – you added nothing specific, of depth, analytical or informative with your post. Just generalistc opinionated manure about our manager.

    #36103
    CariocaCardinal
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    So you refuse to acknowledge any specific MM weaknesses?

    Just because you dont like a response it has no validity to you? Not surprised.

    If I’m the MM hater you think I am, why would I say he should be brought back?

    #36104
    NJ315
    Participant

    Manure? You think a lot of yourself and your opinions don’t you? There was nothing on my post anywhere close to “manure”. Stick to baseball and not to putting other people’s posts down.

    #36106
    Onyxgem
    Participant

    Free

    NJ he has lost his battle here sonjer just going to go to and calling typical of a certain kind of person

    #36107
    bccran
    Participant

    Far enough, NJ. Please respond to my points about Brebbia, Jose Martinez, and DeJong.

    You too, CC.
    Especially how MM “ignored” Martinez for a few years and Brebbia should have been used in high leverage situations as a rookie called up at the end of May (who had a 6.23 ERA at Memphis in 2016).
    Earlier in the thread I listed what I thought MM’s strengths and weaknesses are. Anyone want to have that fair and constructive conversation?

    #36114
    CardsRedSox4Ever
    Participant

    Free

    MM had a bad year for sure, and it appears to be trending that way again barring a few trades or acquisitions that put a knee in the curve. Playoffs in his 1st three years including a WS appearance, then an ugly playoff in ‘15 and no appearance in ‘16 or ‘17. As a Cards fan, I expect to see more than an entertaining product on the field, I expect to see a winning product, and we don’t have that now. Not entirely MM’s fault—players, managers and owners are all accountable.

    But MM made many questionable calls throughout the year, particularly with relievers, that cost the team several games. He needs to be accountable for that. Is he a bad manager? No. Is he an above average manager who needs to rethink pitching strategy? Yes.

    I’ve been critical of MM all year but am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if they give him a few new faces and rethinks how to utilize the pen. Maybe the new pitching coach will help with that.

    #36115
    NJ315
    Participant

    He gets credit for playing and supporting those three. What about the ones that did not perform to expectations? All I read from you Matheny doesn’t bat or pitch so is not his fault when the players fail. You can’t have both ways. My opinion is a manager doesn’t have as much say on the winning or losing of the team as many think. His job is to lead his players Matheny is good at that and put them of the proper situations so they can succeed he is lousy at this. Unless he changes his approach and learn how to use his players as the different situations dictate his results will be the same. Adequate when he has good players but still losing during the playoffs and when the roster is mediocre no playoffs. In 6 years he has repeated the same mistakes so I don’t see changing his way. Managers like everybody need to learn and adapt he has failed miserably at both.

    #36116
    bccran
    Participant

    All I hear are negative generalities. Opinions. No meat on the bone as far as an intelligent conversation weighing specific data
    or specific players like I mentioned. Comments like – yeah, he has some good points but he has a lot more bad points. Wow. Mind numbing.

    #36120
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    bccran

    Participant

    2.) A 28 year old outfielder who had labored in the minors for over 10 years. He gets a chance and hits .309 with an OPS of .897 in over 300 plate appearances.

    CariocaCardinal

    Participant

    I give MM little blame for bad play (except when he puts players in positions that lead to their failure). Consequently, he gets little credit for their success. Particularly the play of a 28 y.o. that Matheny ignored the past few years and didnt even see fit to keep on the roster at the start of the year.

    bccran

    Participant

    He had a choice to play the 28 year old for the past “few years” and ignored him? Are we talking about the same player? Martinez came to the Cardinals organization about a third of the way through a 5 month minor league season in 2016, after being in the minors for 10 years. At Memphis in 2016 he hit .269 with a .742 OPS. Sheesh, even when the facts are there, posters will bend them to fit their agenda.

    So maybe Matheny didn’t have him for 2 full seasons (he was acquired in late May 2016). He had the opportunity to start him all year long in 2017 but only gave him 63 starts. At least 1/3 of them were in September. This same 28 year old had hit over an .800 OPS in 2014 and 2015 so it is not like Matheny didn’t know he could hit that well. Starts by month: 8, 4, 12, 5, 12 and 22. How does Matheny gets credit for that?

    #36122
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    bccran

    Participant

    “Brebbia pitched well, but MM continued using less successful pitchers in high leverage situations”. Really? You want to put a minor leaguer who was called up at the end of May into high leverage situations? When he doesn’t have any major league experience in those situations?

    He did with Sheriff in 2017, Bowman and Alex Reyes in 2016, Wacha and Siegrist in 2013, etc. There is actually a pattern of success doing this in the past.

    #36123
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    bccran

    Participant

    Matheny had little choice but to play DeJong at SS? Would suggest a look at both the Cardinals and Memphis rosters when that move was made and notice the players who had a heckuva lot more professional games at SS than DeJong’s total of 11 at the AA level and 17 in the AFL. Moving DeJong to the most critical defensive position on the field at the major league level with his paltry time having played there was a huge risk, and took a lot of intestinal fortitude.

    There wasn’t as much risk in playing DeJong at SS as you make it out to be. He had played the position some in college, in the Arizona Fall League and in spring training. I am sure there was enough sample size to determine whether or not he could handle the position competently. He really wasn’t playing because of his fielding, anyway. He was playing because of his bat.

    As far as the others to play the position, you had Breyvic Valera, Diaz, Wilfredo Tovar, Alex Mejia, Gyorko and Greg Garcia. Who am I missing? Who would you say would have been a better choice?

    #36125
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    I will admit that I wasn’t paying close attention with your reference to Martinez (names help) and referred to another long term minor leaguer (Pham) who was the talent that MM ignored the last few years. And while Martinez is a success story over all, Forsch’s point about why didn’t he play more is still valid (similar to Brebbia) and my points about Pham still are valid.

    #36127
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

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    Bccran, could you repeat your post about what you think MM’s strengths and weaknesses are?

    #36128
    bccran
    Participant

    Sure.

    Strengths –

    Helping people going through difficult times
    Tough, hard nosed approach that rubs off on the players
    Never give up attitude – play hard through the 27th out – rubs off on players
    Ability to teach and have patience with young players – opposite from Tony L.
    High character

    Weaknesses –

    Weak bullpen management
    Loyal to a fault with some veteran players

    #36129
    bccran
    Participant

    Sure.

    Strengths –

    Helping people going through difficult times
    Tough, hard nosed approach that rubs off on the players
    Never give up attitude – play hard through the 27th out – rubs off on players
    Ability to teach and have patience with young players – opposite from Tony L.
    High character

    Weaknesses –

    Weak bullpen management
    Loyal to a fault with some veteran players

    #36130
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    I probably put less emphasis than some on how a manager affects individual performance. But since you want to go there.

    Players who exceeded expectations

    Dejong
    Brebbia
    Martinez
    Pham
    Weaver
    Sheriff
    Tuivialla
    Lyons

    Players who performed below expectations

    Wainwright
    Leake
    Carpenter
    Grichuk
    Piscotty
    Diaz
    Peralta
    Kelly
    Adams
    Fryer
    Garcia
    Socolovich
    Broxton
    Cecil
    Bowman
    Oh
    Seigrest

    All the rest of the players I would classify as playing at expectation or not enough to matter.

    Not a good scorecard for Matheny when you consider none of the above expectation performers were on the opening day roster except Martinez who MM could only figure out how to get into the lineup half the time. Compared to the number of under performing players and the amount of their playing time this appears to be a losing metric for MM.

    What is the next criteria you would like to use bccran?

    #36133
    bccran
    Participant

    I really don’t want to dignify your list, but l’ll respond to a few –

    Siegrist – was hurt and never got his velocity back
    Piscotty – do you really want to go there from a human interest standpoint?
    Wainwright – is having surgery to clean up his arm issues
    Peralta – never recovered from his torn thumb ligament
    Kelly – should I list some great players who struggled their first time up?
    Adams – suggest you look at his numbers at the time of the trade

    #36135
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    Thanks, not sure I agree with any of those strengths. For me, those are at best what you would call opinions and generalities with no meat on the bone.

    I would specifically dispute the play to the last out attitude. Wouldn’t that show up in comeback wins? Being able to hold leads? Win close games? I will look up the stats later but pretty sure they wont look good for MM.

    Teach and have patience with young players? For every Dejong there is a Piscotty or a Diaz. Where should this show up in your opinion if true? Wins? (No advantage having patience with players if they lose). Open to ideas of how to take this out of the abstract opinion and in to the concrete.

    Hard nose aproached? I saw a team without heart, some laziness, and lots of mental errors. What did you see bccran?

    Helping people through difficult times? What does that even mean when it comes to being an effective manager? Again, wouldn’t that show up in improved performance if it was true? Maybe it is true, an admirable quality, but is really not important to being a manager? Again, open to suggestions on how to evaluate this.

    Character. Pretty much see above.

    I notice you didn’t mention leadership. I always perceived this as a strength but this year seems to have proven the opposite. If you disagree let me know and I’ll elaborate but my phone battery is almost dead.

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