Matheny as manager – fired 7/14

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  • #33913
    thejager
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    Paid - Annual

    So exactly WHY is MM bad?

    Lay it out front to back. State your reasons and any facts you have to back it up. List them out ad neauseum

    Then let Bcc or anyone else say their rebuttal to your positions and points.

    Right now all I hear is vague rebuttals and platitudes and bcc spends time trying to post facts and figures for the most part. The. Usually the posts end in a personal insult to Bcc or me or even the idea of anything opposite to your own thoughts

    Make it all specific and discuss your thoughts specifically and pointedly without attacking. Maybe make it like 10 specifIc bullet points as a Start and let both sides respond. Then respond to their responses

    Also and lastly I love that I personally get scolded for defending the team I am supposed to be a fan of. And being optimistic and encouraging on this Season
    And even in the face of all my those personal attack’s I continue to be excited and encouraged by what I see. And how I have been told ALL year I was delusional and this team was terrible and had zero shot at the playoffs and Low and behold look at ya right there with only 1.5 games to make up in 9 to get in.

    Go ahead and attack me for having hope and being optimistic instead of being pessimists and deciding to give up at first opportunity. The use that first opportunity to attack all season long even if those things got better and the team got better and more competitive as the season went on.

    Defense has been very good compared to other teams the second half. And improved greatly from the beginning of the year. Same goes for the baserunning.

    But since people gave up so early an made up their minds on this team no matter the outcome as otherwise they’d think they’d be a fool.

    And if the team doesn’t make it in. If I am made a fool for supporting the team from start to finish I will have been the happiest fool for the whole season as all I did was support and hope the best instead of looking for the worst as a means to make me feel better about giving up early

    I criticize this team and gms and coaches and players a lot. But people act because I support the team and hope for the best that I don’t. And the. They the say criticizing doesn’t mean They don’t support them, but then in threads like this they give zero credit for fixing issues or getting better. Even if this team made the playoffs and went on to win the WS they’d still just say it’s a fluke to save face. That’s obvious negative bias and thus make for poor to impossible discussion

    #33917
    BlackHillsCard
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    Free

    Omg just stop with the big bat garbage!!! That doesn’t explain away his awful game management which is what’s hurt this team. His decisions in the postseason, his usage of the wrong relievers, overuse of relievers and leaving starters in longer than they need. A big bat doesn’t explain why the defense is garbage or why certain guys cannot run the bases. That’s on the coaches and Matheny is head coach!

    #33918
    bccran
    Participant

    I really do feel sorry for Bud and Lou. They can’t get joy out of watching their own team. Too tied up in negativism re the team’s skipper. Analysis to paralysis after every game whether we win or lose.

    One salient question. If one wants to judge another in their job performance, the judge should have credentials and qualifications. What are your credentials and qualifications, Brian and BlackHills. Bringing that forth could very well enhance your credibility as a critic.

    #33920
    BlackHillsCard
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    Oh stop with the rhetoric bccran! I’m a fan of this team and have been my entire life. I’m not an apologist like you who turns a blind eye to poor performance and act like Matheny is the best thing to grace a Cardinal uniform. I am not the only one calling for Matheny’s firing. There are a ton of sports writers, more smarter than you and me, who have written countless articles talking about Matheny’s piss poor job performance. You’re unbelievable. You are the kind of person who would vote for someone knowing full well their policies would be detrimental to your livlihood and wouldn’t have any regrets.

    #33922
    NJ315
    Participant

    BlackHillsCard don’t waste your time. They refuse to see Matheny’s poor decisions no matter how many examples you give them. Matheny’s managing last series in Chicago once more showed how bad he is.

    #33926
    bccran
    Participant

    Matheny does some good things and some things that don’t work out.
    Just like with any MLB manager.

    #33927
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    That is the weakest and lamest argument I have ever heard.

    #33930
    bccran
    Participant

    It’s not an argument, and isn’t meant to be. It’s a statement of fact. We all have our pluses and minuses. Even you, BH.

    #33932
    Brianpnoonan
    Participant

    Free

    Saying “we are all not perfect” is a nonsensical copout and isnt even an argument. It is a distraction meant to cast blame at the other party without actually dealing with the points that have been brought up and is more often than not used when you don’t actually have an argument.

    as for my credentials on strategy? Former world champ at strategic gaming. Literally.

    Does that matter? Not really. My opinions are what they are. I can handle criticism. You’re the one who suddenly demanded them as I rarely bring it up.

    As for being insulting… You say you’re laughing at me and I tell you to take a logic class. Which one is more insulting? Also which one was first?

    Once again… Average is not good enough… And the national pundits generally are calling him way below average.

    #33937
    bccran
    Participant

    The MM bashers on here seem awfully biased and one sided. They refuse to admit that MM has strengths too. And I’m afraid that’s just unrealistic.

    #33938
    BlackHillsCard
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    If the Leader of Men was such a great tactician Dexter Fowler wouldn’t be playing CF as many have already pointed to before tonight’s disastrous 1st inning.

    Matheny blew the 2012 NLCS
    Matheny blew the 2013 WS
    Matheny blew the 2014 NLCS
    Matheny blew the 2015 NLDS

    THere is a reason writers invented a new word to describe Matheny’s coaching ability: Mathenaging. FYI its not because he’s such a great manager.

    #33939
    bccran
    Participant

    BH –

    You have brought absolutely nothing factual forward. It’s all generalizations and either your opinion or someone else’s opinion.
    Trying to discuss pluses and minuses re our manager with you is a total waste of time – yours and mine. An excercize in fultility.

    Statements like “Matheny blew the 2012 Workd Series” are shallow and childish.

    Please do your homework and come back with some detailed, data based, enlightened information.

    #33941
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    I have provided you links to actual analysis and you are blindly ignoring them so don’t dismiss me when you’re to stubborn or incompetent to understand what is put in front of you. You’re such a Matheny apologist that you blindly swallow what is spoon fed to you by Matheny’s own inane logic. It wont matter how much information or links or analysis I provide, you will just ignore it. I’ve had far more intelligent conversations with my dog. She at least knows garbage when she sees it. You on the other hand don’t. When you wake from your delusion I’ll be there to say, “I told you so.” and I will gladly laugh at your cool aid guzzling.

    #33942
    bccran
    Participant

    I’m sorry, son. Insults don’t bother me. Have a good evening and the very best to you.

    #33944
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    For the record, I’m not your son so keep your petty childish put-downs to yourself.

    #33945
    bccran
    Participant

    Okay. How about young man. Is that better?

    #33952
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    As opposed to Old Man? Keep being disparaging.

    #33955
    bccran
    Participant

    Let’s get back to baseball. We both are off track. Thank you.

    #33970
    SoonerinNC
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Black Hills your comment about Matheny’s bad decisions in the Cub series is typical.

    Let’s see
    Clearly Matheny made the decision for his team to score only 6 runs the entire series.
    Also for Carp, Yadi and DeJong to have a sub par series at the plate
    Or for our so called ace to melt down in the first game or maybe it was a bad decision to even let him pitch.
    Are those some of the things you are referring to?

    Decisions can go one way or another and can be viewed differently by well meaning people. Some can say that it was a bad decision and that it didn’t work. Or they can say that it was a good decision that didn’t work. Anyone can say how it worked after the fact and some will evaluate the decision after they know the result.

    You will have more credibility if you specify the decision you think was bad. Like bringing in Bowman during the Martinez meltdown. But wait, Bowman is arguably our best double play pitcher and we needed a double play. (By the way the next game that Bowman came in we also needed a double play and he got a double play ball that DeJong launched into right field.) In the Cub game he didn’t get a double play ball so it was obviously a bad decision by the manager.

    I am not making these comments in defense of Matheny. I have concerns about Fowler in center field, about how often we strike out on bad pitches and are called out on so many good pitches but you know what I would probably see many of the things I don’t like if I was a fan of any other team. The bad thing about the great internet that we have is that provides a forum for anyone who thinks they are smarter than the professional people they observe.

    #33976
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Mike has shown over the years that his late game managing is often questionable, and sometimes downright bad. When talking about bringing in a new guy, the real questions become:

    1. Do Matheny’s other leadership qualities at least even out his propensity to often not give the team the best chance in games that are late and close?

    2. All managers make mistakes similar to Matheny. For example, Maddon was horrible in last year’s World Series at times in how he used Chapman, but got away with it. Would another guy be consistently better than Matheny?

    As I have said many times, I think Matheny has gotten better, and is not quite as “push button” with his bullpen as he once was. He still seems to struggle with analyzing the potential counter moves from the other team. Too often he seems to think only of the current batter-pitcher matchup, without taking in to account what might change in the next few match-ups as a result of his move.

    It’s a tough call as the team is competitive, so you do not want to get too emotional when making a decision to stay with your manager, or make a change. If I am in the front office, once the Cardinals season end I take in a lot of opinions and advice from those around me and from contacts around the league, before making any decision on Matheny’s future. And if I do lean towards firing him, I have a good plan in place for replacing him. What ever you do as a decision maker, don’t go all “Gussie Busch” and have your course of action based primarily on emotion.

    #33978
    NJ315
    Participant

    Bringing Bowman bad. He has been really bad since May. Bowman was the wrong choice.

    Letting a righty pitch to Heyward bad.

    Bringing a lefty to face Jay bad…but Carp saved him with a good play.

    When they lose is the player’s fault when they win is Matheny’s credit.

    #33982
    bccran
    Participant

    Probably best to just agree to disagree about our manager. There are certain posters who only want to talk about the bad and ignore the good. That leads nowhere.

    #33983
    NJ315
    Participant

    You mean like the ones that ignore the bad and only see the good? Gotcha

    #33985
    bccran
    Participant

    Every defender of MM on this forum has said that he has his strong points and his weak points. IMHO he provides strong character leadership, has a grind it out to the last inning and last game competitiveness, but makes questionable player moves at times. What say you, NJ? What are his strengths and weaknesses in your opinion?

    #33986
    SoonerinNC
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Frankly I don’t pay too much attention to those who always have bad things to say and disappear when things go well.

    Also don’t pay a lot of attention to those who always are positive.

    I pay a lot more attention to those with a more balanced outlook. And for those who say I have always been a Cardinal fan and am just being objective. Must be tough being negative all of the time about something you supposedly support.

    And let me understand. It was bad to have a righthanded pitcher pitch to Heyward who is left handed, but also bad to let a lefty pitch to Jay who is also left handed. Sounds like looking for a reason to pick. And who hasn’t been bad out of the bullpen this year. And who is more likely to get a double play ball than Bowman although I agree Bowman has not been as good this year as last.

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