Greg Holland Thread

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This topic contains 69 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Brian Walton 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 70 total)
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  • #36393

    PadsFS
    Participant

    Care you explain why? Nicasio has been lights out since moving to relief.

    #36394

    mudville
    Participant

    I think we could get by with Nicasio for awhile. But I also think major league batters will get used to him and make adjustments. He does’t have a really good out pitch. If they sign him, I hope they don’t give him more than two years.

    #36395

    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Pads, have you looked at Cishek’s stats? Every year Nicasio has been a reliever Cishek has been a better reliever. Cishek has 127 career saves vs 7 for Nicaio. Also scared off by the 76 appearances Nacisio made this year. Why would you prefer Nacisio?

    #36437

    gscottar
    Participant

    Nicasio would be an excellent setup man. We would still need a lockdown closer. I’m not sure the FO wants to spend that much on the pen.

    #36473

    Mrperkins
    Participant

    I’d be fine with them letting Tui try it out. Spend the money saved on a bat. Is there any possibility Reyes goes to the bullpen to safeguard his arm for the time being? That could be another closer option. I just hate to see the cards spend elite money on one of the flukiest roles on the team who is likely only going to give you 70 innings. In my opinion closers should be groomed rather than overpaying for them on the open market.

    #36481

    thejager
    Participant

    that’s the big question Perkins isnt it…

    I think everyone wants to groom them, but when you dont have time to groom them you pay for them…

    but looking at the playoff teams how many of the lights out closers are homegrown

    Yanks have Betances but Chapman, Robertson make him a look a lot better
    Giles isnt the Stros..and whiel he has been groomed a bit in the spot he came over in a mpt small trade with the Phils
    Davis isnt the Cubs
    Jansen is homegrown right? so there is one
    Kimbrel isnt the Sox
    Miller isnt the Indians
    all the pen for the Nats isnt theirs right?
    Rodney isnt a Dback
    Holland and Mcgee arent Rox
    Belisle? isnt a Twin

    now they arent all TOP flight closers making huge money… but outside Jansen and Betances none of them are homegrown

    I think Rosy is worth waiting for…he has proved it before and even this year…and he isnt expensive…but a young arm with experience and velocity that we already know is a hard thing to find..Reyes can help but is unproven, Alcantara and Hudson are a coin flip and the rest are uninspiring IMO…Tui would be interesting but hasnt done anything to deserve the role, BRebbia i like but him being Socolovich 2.0 is a real possibility… Lyons has been impressive and while he earned the shot it seems a gamble…

    Nicasio was solid, but he tends to be pretty streaky…i’d be willing to sign him for competition for the spot but i’d want another vet option too just in case…NEshek, and a few others will be available

    Holland isnt worth the investment and his up and down year, i just dont trust him

    Davis to me is the one you want if you’re going to pay for one…and he probably is worth it…but he is the golden goose for the offseason so i dont know if we’d be willing to throw as much as the Cubs or whomever will be throwing money

    #36488

    gscottar
    Participant

    One thing is crystal clear: You don’t win a championship without a lockdown bullpen. I think the Astros are finding that out and the Dodgers had a clear advantage over the Cubs. Whether we pay for one, develop one, or whatever we MUST upgrade the pen. We can’t go into the year with the attitude of “figure it out as we go because spending on the pen is a bad investment.” There is nothing more demoralizing than blowing late leads.

    #36499

    PadsFS
    Participant

    I don’t see that Cishek has been better at all. I guess he left a bad taste in my mouth from 2015 when he had a really poor season. His velocity is way down (3+ MPH) from his days as an elite closer back in Miami. His ERA is better, but the peripherals aren’t. Also, I don’t care for the side-armer type reliever.

    Plus Nicasio is throwing gas still.

    #36500

    PadsFS
    Participant

    I don’t want to go after an elite closer, rather an elite reliever. Nicasio fits the latter. Over-paying happens when you go after the Chapman’s and Melancon’s of the world.

    Maybe I don’t want them to go after Holland after-all. Dealing for an under-valued guy like the next Herrera seems like a good way to go. Or maybe Betances of the Yankees.

    #36502

    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    I am agreement with Pads about elite relievers vs. an elite closer. I would go after 2 elite relievers and possibly one emerging reliever. Bank on one of them pitching well enough to take over the closer role. We just dont agree on which relievers!

    #36535

    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Hint: to make sure the Cards don’t acquire a certain player, start a thread for that player. Having a thread here means you won’t be wearing the birds on the bat.

    #37208

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Not a surprise, but Holland officially filed for free agency.

    http://insidetheseams.com/holland-among-7-rockies-now-free-agents/

    #39908

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Options for Holland and Wade Davis are shrinking. Holland is not going back to Colorado. The Rockies just signed Bryan Shaw and likely he and/or Jake McGee will close.

    #39949
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Interesting discussion as to how much should a club invest in a closer. I agree to a point with gscottar, in that you do not win a championship without a lock down closer. But more precisely, I look at bullpens a little like a goalie in hockey. A lesser team can win a championship with a hot bullpen in the post season, just like a lesser hockey team can win the cup with a hot goalie.

    During the season, to get to the playoffs you are going to need a strong closer. But there are times where your bullpen can fumble around some during the season, and you can still qualify. And then if your bullpen pulls it together in the Fall, they can close the deal (so to speak).

    Like some others, I am hesitant to spend big on an open market closer. I like Tui and think he can be a good closer, and then we have Reyes who could be lights out in the role if he’s recovered. But those are “if’s”, and you hate to get to July still trying to figure out who can consistently come in and finish off a close game.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by bicyclemike bicyclemike.
    #39954

    PadsFS
    Participant

    Doesn’t Colorado have an offer out to Holland right now?

    I liked both Shaw and McGee. I really wish they would lock up Reed. He’s still young too, unlike these two.

    #39959
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    I think Holland likes it here, and the Rockies are trying to work a deal to keep him.

    #40800

    gscottar
    Participant
    #41030

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    More from Morosi:

    #STLCards, Scott Boras have numerous reasons to be in touch: Boras clients Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas, Greg Holland all possible fits for St. Louis roster. And we know from Stanton pursuit that Cardinals have capacity to add payroll where warranted.

    https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/948245411390738432

    #41052

    Mrperkins
    Participant

    I would be ok trying tui as a rare super cheap closer developing. If going the free agent route, which I hate, I’d offer Addison reed 4/36.

    #41053

    LoganAlpha30X7
    Participant

    I keep wondering if say we don’t make the playoffs this year and the front office all gets fired if we should be so quick to sign anybody to a long term deal, maybe that’s part of why some free agents and such don’t want to come here right now, because if we do bad a lot could change and all…

    #41054

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Even if 2018 is a bad year, the front office is not going to be fired. The manager could, but I have never heard of a manager’s status being a significant concern of free agent$$$.

    #41057

    mudville
    Participant

    I have a feeling that the length of contract that’s being offered by the ball clubs is what’s holding up the free agent signings. The players and their agents want 5-6 year contracts, and the ball clubs don’t want to give more than 3-4 years. Greg Holland is 32 years old now. I wouldn’t want him on the books for more than 2 years. When you think about it, it seems ridiculous to pay a 36 year old pitcher the same money that you pay to a 32 year old.

    #41074

    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    You mean like 36-year old Adam Wainwright, making $18 MM? His last really good season was at age 32.

    #41079

    thejager
    Participant

    Holland at 2 years would be great…but it wont happen…

    Colome still seems the smarter route…we have other youngsters who might turn into big late inning types…so if colome struggles or would need demotion or just gets too expensive we could have help

    I dont want Holland becoming another Broxton

    I hate when we sign guys a year or two late…

    we did it with Mark Ellis….Broxton was a bad buy too…I am worried about Gregerson as well…paying for past performance is part of the game… but as guys get older to me that part of the equation should go way down…and instead look to very recent behavior….and to me… Holland’s second half was not a good sign…his good first half made up for it..but i dont like that trend…especially with an older guy…

    #41087

    gscottar
    Participant

    I agree with you jager. I’m not fired up about Holland at all. If we don’t swing the trade for Colome we should go after Reed. It will probably take 4 years $40M to get him, which is an overpay, but the reliever market is inflated right now.

    I also like the idea of Reyes working out of the pen this year ala CMart in 2013.

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