December 6, 2017 at 10:07 pm #38893
The Cards playing hardball is probably exactly what Stanton is hoping for. Would get him off the hook.December 6, 2017 at 10:15 pm #38894
Though again if neither the Giants or the Cards were on the list why even bother to meet with them, I wouldn’t meet with a player that my team had no chance of getting if I was the front office people…December 6, 2017 at 10:31 pm #38896
Why would a Dodger fan ever play for the Giants. He can stay at home and get his way eventually. I think the Cards are a clear favorite of the two. But he wants the Dodgers and is used to getting everything he wants.December 6, 2017 at 10:31 pm #38897
But if Marlins knew and are just wasting the CArds times to drive price up that could and should effect the cards dealing with them Period anymoreDecember 6, 2017 at 10:34 pm #38898
@forsch – nice of you to keep changing the argument. First, it was there are never any stars available when the Cardinals draft. Now, it is every other team missed out and you didn’t hear anything about it back then (I wasn’t on the board back then – I joined in 2016, if you couldn’t guess).
Let’s take the 2016 draft. Cardinals drafted Dylan Carlson in the first round. Now, BrianPNoonan loves Dylan Carlson, but the highest anybody had him ranked before the draft was 95th. There were other players that had second round grades that I thought were clearly better – Nick Solak and Sheldon Neuse, for example. I created a whole thread about it, which you participated in. I don’t follow high school players before the draft, because it is harder to find information on them except from sites like Baseball America. But Bo Bichette was a fringe first rounder. How is he now? He was drafted in the 2nd round.
Cardinals have no 3B depth in the minors. Last year, one of the trades I suggested the Cardinals make, since at the time they refused to make multiple prospects for one MLB player, was trading a pitcher for Colton Welker of the Rockies. Didn’t you recently say you would be on board with trading for Welker? Now, at the time I first suggested it, Welker was ranked 24th in the Rockies system. He is now 4th in the Rockies system and 6th at 3B in the minors. He was drafted in the 4th round.
The problem I have with the high school position players the Cardinals draft in the 1st round is they draft them for their ability to draw walks (Carlson, Plummer), not for superb athleticism or power.
But keep changing your arguments.December 6, 2017 at 10:38 pm #38899
I have a feeling the Dodgers have basically said to the Marlins that they don’t want to trade for Stanton unless the Marlins take on some salary back for 2018. Whether that be through Marlins paying some of Stanton’s salary or taking some high salary player from the Dodgers (Puig, Kazmir, Gonzalez) If this happened after 2018, I think the Dodgers would be all over Stanton and take on the whole salary without stipulations.December 6, 2017 at 10:41 pm #38900
Montero, Mendoza, Yepez, Young,Wisdom,Kninzer,give some semblance of hope at third base.December 6, 2017 at 10:47 pm #38902
I’ll agree with Mendoza.
Knizner is a catcher now. Yepez? He’s a first baseman.December 6, 2017 at 10:49 pm #38903
C2016, I have not changed my argument. You have misinterpreted what I said. You were the one who brought up Stanton and Arenado (2nd rounders) as 2 players that fit the mold of a “known star at the time they were drafted”. I merely pointed out that for being a know star, 29 other teams passed on them at least 1 time.
So you are saying that Bichette, Welker, Neuse and Solak are known stars? By whose definition?
I never knocked your acquisition of Welker whenever you suggested it unless I felt you were trying to give up too much to get him. However, I don’t think I made a comment on it at all.
Also, I don’t usually comment on the draft threads because I don’t know enough about all the prospects. I will comment on posters basically acting like they are a scout or a GM and who knock the team just because they don’t like who they drafted. You don’t know who will be a star in the majors at the time someone is drafted. If you did, Pujols wouldn’t have been drafted in the 13th round.December 6, 2017 at 10:55 pm #38904
BTW, you said I participated in the 2016 draft thread. Do you remember anyone that I proposed that the Cardinals should draft?December 7, 2017 at 2:36 am #38909
So about StantonDecember 7, 2017 at 8:25 am #38912
@forsch, I said something about the if the Cardinals can’t draft a star in the draft, they either have to trade for them (giving up multiple players) or overpay in free agency.
You asked when there has ever been a star available in the last 7-8 years when the Cardinals drafted.
I gave you two examples off the top of my head.
You then said nobody ever criticized those moves at the time.
I gave you examples from the 2016 draft and indicated that was my first year on the board.
I don’t know whether you commented before the draft – I started my thread after the draft, criticizing the Carlson pick, because it seems like a move where the Cardinals are trying to prove they are smarter than EVERYBODY in baseball, but the reality is it looks like a subpar pick. EVERYBODY on this board attacked me on that thread for voicing my opinions and backing it up with statistical evidence. But I knew that would happen when I created the thread, and did it anyway.
There is strong statistical evidence that the higher the pick, the more likely they are to reach the majors (thus, you should make SURE your first round picks hit). There is strong statistical evidence college picks outperform high school picks on average. There is also statistical evidence that you are more likely to draft superstars from the high school ranks, which is why teams ignore the statistical evidence that college players are better on average.
The way the draft bonus pools are constructed, teams make less than optimal choices. That leads to trying to game the system. That was the Carlson pick. Everybody defended the move as he signed below slot. I pointed out better players who likely would have signed below slot. Nick Solak was projected for the back of the second round, he went in the back of the second round. He is now the 5th best 2B prospect in baseball.
No, I am not saying Solak, Bichette and Neuse are stars. They haven’t made it to the majors yet. Indications are, they are going to be at least above average players. I mean, Solak & Bichette are rated in the Top 5 at their positions among prospects.
But basically, what you are saying – anybody that expresses an opinion that does not 100% agree with what the Cardinals do – you are going to attack. And when your arguments are confronted with facts, you will attack them in a new way. And when those are rebutted with facts, you will say that is not what you meant. If somebody doesn’t express an opinion at the time something happens, nobody can claim they knew better. But if they do express an opinion at the time, they can’t foretell the future so they must be attacked.
Glad we are clear.December 7, 2017 at 8:39 am #38914
Add Yariel Gonzales to that list of intriguing 3B prospects. Brian wrote about him yesterday.December 7, 2017 at 9:33 am #38918
I still think you are severely underrating carlson. Peoria is a very bad place for a hitter and he had a league average ops at 18 (read: way, way too young for the league). At a normal pace of improvement he would be 20 in aa and put up about an .800 ops… Which is top 100 material and then some.
It isnt a stretch to say he could be in the majors at 21 with what he has accomplished. Not in the slightest. Difficult but not a stretch.
Now… Does he have a lot to prove? Yep. But last year was EXTREMELY impressive for a first year minor leaguer if you look past the surface at all.
You also are panning the game playing necessary to sign more talent. Perez might bomb but talented? That he is. He was considered the most talented player in the draft. Which blows your argument out of the water if you use that draft as an example of the cardinals not going after the best talent.
Hudson? Aaa his first full year. Gallen? Same thing.
And I am going to purposefully barely mention andrew knizner who looks like we stole him and then some. The guy should be in our top five right now… Which is saying something with our organizational depth.
Overall that 2016 draft looks extremely, extremely good even with perez bombing so far. Hell we have a 27th rounder destroying the minors so far (O’Neill — low ceiling high control guy so we will see…)
You’re also really stretching things by saying that you should pick college first always when 3 of our first 12 picks were high schoolers.
You and I got into it that day and we will keep getting into it because you’re being ridiculous. And honestly we’ve agreed way more often than not.
We basically took a top three or four guy people thought was the best talent available in the entire draft because he fell (You know… Going after the high end guys), then signed carlson so we could go after more guys.
You cant use that 2016 draft as an example of the cards not going after the best talent and ignore the fact that we might have drafted the most talented player.December 7, 2017 at 11:11 am #38934
Guys please stop with the draft crap start your own thread if you want to this is a thread for Stanon stuff lets keep it that way.December 7, 2017 at 4:23 pm #38950
Bernie does a good job explaining why Yelich would be a better plan B than Ozuna.December 7, 2017 at 6:22 pm #38959
Onyx, you are correct. I am taking my reply to a different thread for those who don’t care to participate or read through.
As far as Stanton goes, I hope we hear something in the next week. As long as we don’t give up too much, I think he propels us to at least the playoffs. With a couple of reliever acquisitions and some growth by our rotation, we could be a World Series contender. We should also have room to make more moves to step up to the Cubs level for several years to come.December 7, 2017 at 6:43 pm #38960
Why would a Dodger fan ever play for the Giants.
Because being a fan of a club, and being in the business of baseball are two different things. Sure it would be nice to play for the club you rooted for as a kid. But when you take a job in the industry, the “fan” part ends up taking a back seat to the business side of things.
As far as the plan B with the Marlins, I have always been a fan of Yelich. He has always seemed under-rated to me, playing in basically a wasteland as far as baseball is concerned, and in the shadow of Stanton.December 7, 2017 at 7:08 pm #38964
I see that Dee Gordon was just traded to the Mariners.December 7, 2017 at 11:08 pm #38980
IMO, Stanton is a fan of himself. He has not taken a back seat to the business side of things. The game is bigger than he is, and bigger than anybody is for that matter, but Stanton disregards that. I’m turned off by what I think is his immaturity and his ‘me first’ behavior.
I said it last season and I still believe that the reason we did not make the postseason is the failure of the bullpen i.e. Broxton, Cecil, Rosenthal, Oh, Siegrist. Nobody could have anticipated all of those bullpen ptchers failing so often. Lets get Colome if he’s available.
Also, getting blindsided by Peralta basically ‘quitting’ before finishing his contract cost some games.
I don’t understand why Piscotty stopped playing up to his ability, but he did. So, we need to do something about right field, and our options are either fix Piscotty or replace him. Ozuna or Yelich would be great.
Obviously, Donaldson isn’t getting traded unless the Blue Jays decide to trade him. But it sure looks like we have what it would take to make the Blue Jays better, if they are interested. And, given that the 2018 free agent class is going to be so active, and that many clubs already have third base covered, and that there are a lot of clubs already close to the luxury tax threshold, it sure seems that Boras could make things better for Donaldson, and himself, if he could get Donaldson a contract extension this offseason rather than have him join the free agent crunch next offseason.December 7, 2017 at 11:50 pm #38981
From Jim Bowden:
@CraigMish and I report that a source close to Giancarlo Stanton has indicated he is inclined to accept a trade to the Dodgers or Yankees under the right circumstances
Mish adds Cubs and Astros as two other teams Stanton would approve. (Apparently he doesn’t have a Midwest issue, after all.)
Ken Rosenthal agrees that Stanton doesn’t want SF or StL but suggests the Cards could help their case by adding Colome and Longoria and the Giants could impress if they sign Ohtani.December 8, 2017 at 12:47 am #38982
Well, I’m not surprised and I never thought he’d come here so I’m not disappointed. My only concern is that their plan B is always sub par and never helps. I almost wish they would do nothing and just go to Spring Training with what they have now rather than add crap. in desperation.December 8, 2017 at 10:37 am #38997
Funny thing is I think I agree with that.
We do way way more harm than good when we sign middling players to big contracts. Fowler and leake are perfect examples. Especially fowler when we panicked with the cf market without even paying attention to our medium and long term pipeline.December 8, 2017 at 11:35 am #39002
I see that Dee Gordon was just traded to the Mariners.
There is speculation that by moving Gordon’s contract the Marlins will be more reluctant to move Ozuna or Yelich. We shall see. Personally I think both will get moved because I think the Marlins are really going to tear it down to the bone like the Cubs and Astros did. They just don’t want to publicly state that in fear of enraging their fan base, or what there is left of one.December 8, 2017 at 2:03 pm #39009
So Stanton is only interested in last years’ LCS teams? That seems really shortsighted.
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