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October 4, 2018 at 9:12 am #71709
Here are the key dates ahead. (I dislike the misnamed “finalists” announcements as they are meaningless other than to divulge the top three finishers ahead of time.)
I haven’t seen a date for Gold Glove Awards, but they also do the finalist thing first. Last year, they announced on November 7, ahead of the major awards listed below.
Nov. 4, 2018 Gold Glove Award winners announced
Nov. 5, 2018 BBWAA Awards Finalists announced
Nov. 12, 2018 Rookies of the Year announced
Nov. 13, 2018 Managers of the Year announced
Nov. 14, 2018 Cy Young Awards announced
Nov. 15, 2018 MVP Awards announced(Update: I added the Gold Glove date above.)
October 4, 2018 at 9:14 am #71710Countless sources create their own awards each fall, including Yahoo, who at least poll 60 key MLB people in voting for their “All-MLB Team”. Matt Carpenter made it as their utility player.
https://sports.yahoo.com/yahoo-sports-2018-mlb-team-mookie-betts-mike-trout-lead-way-130002743.html
October 8, 2018 at 9:47 pm #72042These are minor league awards, but I will include them here. No Cardinals received a minor league Gold Glove this year. Carson Kelly was the last Card to be recognized, in 2016.
October 23, 2018 at 7:25 am #72967Grumpy tweet of the day: This is again the time of the year for the so-called award "finalists" to be disclosed. In every case, they already know who the winners are, but string it out by disclosing the top three finishers ahead of time.
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) October 23, 2018
October 23, 2018 at 7:28 am #72968The #Rawlings #GoldGlove Award Finalists will be announced at 2 pm EST Thursday, Oct. 25th! There are three finalists per position and will be announced by position every five minutes via Twitter starting at 2 pm. #TeamRawlings #RawlingsGoldGlove pic.twitter.com/45L96M01Y3
— Rawlings Sports (@RawlingsSports) October 22, 2018
October 25, 2018 at 2:10 pm #73161Both were expected, but at least they were not cheated…
Kolten Wong and Yadier Molina have been named NL finalists for the @RawlingsSports #GoldGlove Awards! Winners to be announced Nov. 4th. #STLCards pic.twitter.com/mRgE2xTDmh
— St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) October 25, 2018
October 25, 2018 at 2:55 pm #73166For those curious about all of the top three finishers…
https://sabr.org/latest/2018-rawlings-gold-glove-award-finalists-announced
October 25, 2018 at 3:27 pm #73167Jose Martinez must not have had enough appearances at 1st base to qualify.
Wong is the one I have switched gears on. I was pretty much anti-Wong for the past few seasons, but his last 2 months of ’18 has turned me into a believer. I think it’s all finally coming together for Kolten.
October 25, 2018 at 4:31 pm #73169Jon Jay a finalist in RF? I didn’t see that one coming.
October 25, 2018 at 4:43 pm #73170Even though Wong and LeMahieu are high on the index and Baez is nowhere to be found, there’s probably a very good chance that Baez wins.
October 25, 2018 at 6:39 pm #73174stlcard25, that is the subject of the article I writing to run in the morning.
October 26, 2018 at 7:50 am #73207While the annual Gold Glove Award selection process has improved in recent years, warts are still being exposed in the voting, such as at second base in the National League in 2018. (free) https://t.co/QPMrSjxVqv pic.twitter.com/PQAMwyq9QS
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) October 26, 2018
October 26, 2018 at 9:25 am #73241I wonder if these defensive metrics accurately depict good defense. No doubt I have bias, but there is no way Yadi would be the 6th best NL catcher defensively. That doesn’t pass my eye test, but neither does Posey winning a gold glove. To me, he is in the middle of the pack defensively. Another thing I noticed is that Baez played 107 games at 2nd. This does not seem like enough to qualify. If this was for a batting title he surely wouldn’t have qualified. Obviously it seems like a flawed process from start to finish.
October 26, 2018 at 12:51 pm #73268No offense to you, personally, C27, but it seems far easier to condemn the current system than it would be to come up with a better one. IMO, injecting metrics into the process is better than staying with a 100% manager/coach vote. Hopefully, over time, they will continue to refine it.
P.S. If 107 games is not enough, what about Bader? He only started 66 games in CF (and entered mid-game eight other times), and yet Twitter is ablaze over the “snub” and “highway robbery” committed against him. Cited in support of Bader, “highlights” are also precisely why Baez is a “finalist,” in my estimation. So which way do people want it?
IMO, this is an example of why fan voting would be a bad idea (yet that is what they do for Platinum Glove).
Watching some Harrison Bader highlights for my latest #STLCards article @KMOV, I just couldn't help but laugh. He's ridiculous.
Know what else is ridiculous? Bader wasn't even named a FINALIST for a Gold Glove. It's highway robbery, and I'll tell you why: https://t.co/rBmNXW0NmX
— Brenden Schaeffer (@bschaeffer12) October 25, 2018
October 26, 2018 at 2:08 pm #73280Bader should have his chance in 2019 if he stays healthy. And I do think a player should have to play 125-130 games at a position to qualify. As far as defensive statistics go, it isn’t always the player who made the least errors that is the best. How does one qualify varying degrees of a great catch? The little things that don’t equate to errors mean a lot, like a pitcher failing to cover first, or not backing up the right base, or the catcher not backing up first. Defense has so many intangibles that are difficult to measure. Perhaps along with the usual put outs and assists per game, plus perhaps bonus points for both above average plays and exceptional plays divided by games played minus points for errors, even maybe degree of difficulty on particular errors, less for a very difficult play. Phew, that was a very long post for me.
October 28, 2018 at 12:56 pm #73394Another perspective on the second base comparison was offered by none other than Comcast Chicago. They view Wong as the likely Gold Glove Award winner over Baez – because the latter was not a full-time second baseman, but was more of a utility player.
“…it would be hard to see him (Baez) take home the 2B Gold Glove Award with nearly 200 fewer innings at the position than Wong.”
October 28, 2018 at 2:21 pm #73396Brian Walton
Keymaster
Another perspective on the second base comparison was offered by none other than Comcast Chicago. They view Wong as the likely Gold Glove Award winner over Baez – because the latter was not a full-time second baseman, but was more of a utility player.“…it would be hard to see him (Baez) take home the 2B Gold Glove Award with nearly 200 fewer innings at the position than Wong.”
A utility player who is most likely going to finish second in MVP voting….. I know what you meant since he played multiple positions but the term utility player has typically meant bench player.
October 29, 2018 at 2:55 am #73414Jeff Sullivan at Fangraphs had a terrific Bader article at the end of August. Not mere dry analysis, but good prose, and video highlights. In my biased opinion it was one of the better pieces of the year for Fangraphs — but after all they sorta owed it to Bader, having roundly ignored him up until that point, despite his leading all rookies, either league, in WAR for quite awhile. Link: https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/harrison-bader-rookie-of-the-year/
What you won’t find within that outstanding article is the final defensive values for Bader and the other N.L. centerfielders. So I’ll do that now.
The runs values below reflect an average of Fangraphs, BPro, and B-Ref numbers. I have included just the 3 Gold Glove finalists, plus Harry B.
Bader +13.5 runs
Inciarte +13.3
Cain +12.3
Hamilton +6.4As you can see, one of these things is not like the others, and it ain’t Bader. Harrison may or may not deserve the Gold Glove this year; there’s no clear choice. But he surely belongs in the top 3. He passes the eye test, defensive metrics test, and Statcast test with flying feet.
In a year when Redbird rookies produced more WAR than any other N.L. franchise, Bader was the best freshman on the team. It would have been nice for him to get some recognition.
October 29, 2018 at 8:17 am #73423The real question should be whether a rookie with 66 games played of very good defense in CF should receive the same consideration from MLB coaches and managers as established also good-defending center fielders who played a full season. The voters may not assign as much weight to metrics as others, and like it or not, their opinion represents 75 percent of the scoring.
Also, the numbers you quoted, which appear to be DRS, are only a part of the SABR Defensive Index, which makes up the other 25 percent of the Gold Glove Award scoring. Those final results will not be disclosed until the winners are announced next week. At this point, it is not clear if Bader met their minimum games/innings played threshold, which is not made public as far as I can tell. As of August 19, their final in-season update, he did not.
FWIW, Bader was recognized by this site as St. Louis’ top first-year player in 2018.
October 29, 2018 at 10:26 am #73443The 2018 Fielding Bible Award for 2nd Base goes to @KoltenWong of the @Cardinals .
Wong led all 2B in Defensive Runs Saved, improved in the stat by 20 runs from 2017. pic.twitter.com/gLJmDilqMY
— Sports Info Solutions (@SportsInfo_SIS) October 29, 2018
October 29, 2018 at 10:32 am #73445In the nerd version of Gold Glove Awards, Harrison Bader scored fifth in the Fielding Bible Award for center field and came in second to Javier Baez in the multi-position scoring. (Baez was sixth at second base only.)
Yadier Molina was 18th among catchers.
Marcell Ozuna was seventh in left field. Same for Paul DeJong at SS.
October 29, 2018 at 11:35 am #73465October 29, 2018 at 2:19 pm #73477Thanks for all the updates, Brian! Good for Kolten.
Also, the numbers you quoted, which appear to be DRS, are only a part of the SABR Defensive Index, which makes up the other 25 percent of the Gold Glove Award scoring.
The Bader numbers I quoted (and those for the 3 GG finalists) were an average of three publicly available defensive analyses, and so I assumed they would indeed incorporate DRS of course, but also UZR and some other defensive yardstick(s). I wanted the maximum cross section of analytic views.
And maybe I’m picking nits, but I don’t think I would describe Bader’s 2018 CF defense as “very good.” By my lights, other than Jason Heyward’s wonderful 2015 season, Harrison’s was the best defensive season by any Cardinal outfielder in 40+ years. I came along a touch too late for Curt Flood, but I think 2018 Bader beat the best of Van Slyke and McGee and Lankford and Brian Jordan and Edmonds, et. al..
I would characterize Bader’s CF defense in 2018 as tremendous — but you may be right, Brian, that the mere 66 games in CF was overly held against him. I think the voters have taken volume much more seriously since the Palmeiro debacle of 1999. (For you youngsters, later-to-be-disgraced-PED-drug-cheat Rafael Palmeiro played DH back in 1999, and had his best year as a hitter. But he also sprinkled in a couple dozen games at first base. Somehow he won the Gold Glove for the position, flummoxing informed observers. The yoters rightly received plenty of ridicule for that one.)
October 29, 2018 at 4:16 pm #73491You can choose your adjectives, but it doesn’t change the result. 😉
If they had a Gold Glove Award for best fielding Cardinal in 2018, Bader would win. However, in the Fielding Bible scoring for CF, Bader came in fifth, behind all three of the NL Gold Glove Award “finalists” – Cain, Inciarte and Hamilton. In other words, consistent with Gold Glove.
On the other hand, as I mentioned, Bader came in second in the analysis of multi-position players. If he plays in one spot in 2019, he should get his chance at the top, but when all is said and done, I see no clear evidence that Bader was slighted by not being a GG “finalist” in CF this year.
October 29, 2018 at 4:46 pm #73495But I don’t want to choose my adjectives. I want to choose your adjectives.
I see now — the Fielding Bible will only give him credit for the defense played while in CF, when they are comparing him directly to Inciarte, Hamilton, and Cain. Not unreasonable. But were I a Gold Glove voter, I still think that Bader was such a surpassing talent in 2018 even in limited CF duty, that he would have certainly made my top 3.
Here’s an indication of how much Bader did, even in just 66 CF games. At Fangraphs they show how Inside Edge classifies catch difficulty, and how many of each type was made by MLB outfielders. In the “remote” category in 2018, the catches with only a scant 1-10% likelihood, the aforementioned N.L. centerfield quartet ranked as follows:
1) Hamilton 3
2) Bader 2
3) Inciarte 1
4) Cain 0In the category of “unlikely” (10%-40%) it was:
1) Cain 3
1) Hamilton 3
3) Bader 2
4) Inciarte 0And Bader was 183-for-183 at converting the likely catches (60% or better). I look forward to watching him in Center for the next 4 or 5 years.
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